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Forums - Politics - New Legislative Body - Super Congress

Here is a CNN segment on what happens if the debt ceiling is not raised:
http://situationroom.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/25/where-does-u-s-debt-come-from/

The Chamber of Commerce and a number of corporate executives said to raise it now. People need to get real. But carry on.



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Super Congress? LOL

It's an excuse to make more powers available in the political margin, this is a joke or at least it should be.



           

...and The Patriots system begins....



To raise it is akin to a drug addict saying they'll get clean after just one more hit.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

thranx said:
HappySqurriel said:
Rath said:
HappySqurriel said:
 


How many Americans have debt that is almost 7 times their household income and are spending 50% more than they earn every month?


Yes the American deficit is well and truly out of control at the moment (and yes trillions of dollars do need to be made up in savings and/or revenue), that doesn't mean that having a constitutional inability to spend more than is earnt in any given period won't be crippling. In developed countries even the healthiest economies sometimes have deficit years.

With proper budgeting practices deficits are entirely unnecessary ...

If you collect 5% or 10% more money that you spend and save it to ensure that spending levels can be maintained in the case of a economic shock, or increased in the case of war, and if you expend this fund you cut discretionary spending and increase taxes to cover the shortfall.

You mean keep a sensible budget and only buy/spend what you can afford and save the rest for a rainy day? Sounds right to me, and pretty basic too. You would think the government of the United States would realise this. Its amazing how bad spending has spun out of control.

Well, it's not their money, so they don't give a shit what they do with it.  And really, they don't need to cut any programs like Social Security or Medicare.  All they need to do is look at "pork" spending.  It wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that half of taxpayers' money is spent on Congressmen's pet projects and/or given out to their buddies as "business deals."  Let's not forget that report that came out months ago that showed government had 100's of redundant committees/agencies/programs that were given jobs/goals that were already being handled by another agency or program.  Was anything done to those redundant government bodies?  Nope.

And now we want to save money by forming and giving Congress's taxing power to some stupid committee that will probably be all show and no action.  Who wants to bet that those on the committee will also get a huge raise?  Way to save.  In the end, it's become like going to a mall and giving a huge wad of cash to a known shopaholic, then expecting them not to blow it all while you use the restroom.



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Mr Khan said:
badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:
badgenome said:
I hope all the assholes who have been crying about the need for bipartisanship are happy. Whenever Republicans and Democrats agree on something it's invariably worse than what either of them could ever dream up by themselves.

At least this, which in no way do I support, will be better than what will happen if they don't raise the debt ceiling.  End result is half the government shuts down, and guess who decides what half operates?  One thing, it isn't going to be anyone elected, or it will end up on Obama's desk.

A nation has to have SOME sort of agreement to a minimum things that will be off the table, and pay for the rest.   What would be better, than on one agree to anything and thing no decisions are made, and then you go into half the government shut down?

The executive branch decides which agencies continue to operate once the debt ceiling is reached, and last I checked Obama was elected, so I don't get your point.

This bullshit is way, way worse than the Department of the Interior shutting down for a few weeks. And actually, I sort of hope a partial shutdown does happen just so all the pants wetters can see that the fucking world doesn't end when the government has to actually live within its means for a little while.

It's not about partial shutdown, nor even about the potential damage of millions of social security recipients going without for a bit. It's about credit ratings and the domino effect. We've sustained such huge deficits because of a high credit rating and the fact that our bonds are still a very good investment.

The venom of partial default will not be about what we can't pay, it'll be the backlash of investor confidence, it'll be the fact that Japan, with very high debt themselves has a lot of their positive balance sheet sunk into U.S. bonds, or China, whose consistent growth has been helping to float the global economy through recent turmoils, who also have a rather large proprotion of holdings in bonds that may suddenly find themselves sharply reduced in value

Imagine the credit-default-swap meltdown, but played out in the treasuries of the largest economies in the world, rather than in the banking sector. I'm not saying this will happen, but this is where the danger really lies here

its a good thing then that Japan, China, Russia, Britain are in no place right now to sell our debt. so nothing will happen



Rath said:
HappySqurriel said:
richardhutnik said:
HappySqurriel said:
Rath said:
What you really need is to strip one of the existing houses of most of it's powers - in most other countries it's the upper house (the Senate in your case) that's much weaker. That way you can't end up with such a deadlock between the two.

Deadlock is a feature not a bug ...

The government of the United States was designed with several checks and balances that tend  to result in deadlock when a party tries to do something without support.  It is only a really big problem now because politicians are so worried about how their statements or actions will be portrayed in a 24 hour news cycle.

When you have a major fractioning when nothing can be supported to a sufficient degree, then end result is that the check and balance system stops working.  What will happen when the money runs out is exactly what the Tea Party folk want... except of course when there is no one guarding the borders any longer, or other things they would like are stopped.  Sometimes a feature can kill you, if out of balance.

If you're that worried, and you think any solution is better than letting the debt ceiling remain where it is, write a letter to the president and your member of the senate/house and tell them to follow the Republican plan (cut cap and balance) that is supported by 66% of voters. If you believe that Cut Cap and Balance is worse than leaving the debt ceiling where it is let the checks and balances do their job and prevent that legislation from passing. Either way, the checks and balances are in place to support you ...

Which poll gives you that information? Here's a poll that gives a very different answer - only 28% of Americans support only spending cuts while 66% support a combination of spending cuts and tax increases.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/18/politics/main20080496.shtml

 

The cut, cap and balance plan is one from the extreme economic right, not from moderates, and it's proposed constitutional 'balanced budget' amendment is insanity.

 

@Viper1. While you're correct in saying that the government will pay interest on its debts first (as it is constitutionally oblidged to do) you're incorrect in saying that it will have to add new programs to go over its debt limit. Its costs for existing programs are above its revenues - as such things like social security might not be able to be paid until the debt ceiling is raised.

the bolded is a complete lie. aside form the fact that after we pay the interest on the debt, pay our soldier pay medicare recipients, we would still have enough to write the Social Security checks. SS payments are completely seperate from our debt and what revenue we have to pay it with. its filed completely diffferent, they have no correlation on each other, and besides, we are supposed to have a social security trust fund. or thats what politicians have been telling us since SS inception... *wink wink nudge nudge*



osamanobama said:
Rath said:
HappySqurriel said:
richardhutnik said:
HappySqurriel said:
Rath said:
What you really need is to strip one of the existing houses of most of it's powers - in most other countries it's the upper house (the Senate in your case) that's much weaker. That way you can't end up with such a deadlock between the two.

Deadlock is a feature not a bug ...

The government of the United States was designed with several checks and balances that tend  to result in deadlock when a party tries to do something without support.  It is only a really big problem now because politicians are so worried about how their statements or actions will be portrayed in a 24 hour news cycle.

When you have a major fractioning when nothing can be supported to a sufficient degree, then end result is that the check and balance system stops working.  What will happen when the money runs out is exactly what the Tea Party folk want... except of course when there is no one guarding the borders any longer, or other things they would like are stopped.  Sometimes a feature can kill you, if out of balance.

If you're that worried, and you think any solution is better than letting the debt ceiling remain where it is, write a letter to the president and your member of the senate/house and tell them to follow the Republican plan (cut cap and balance) that is supported by 66% of voters. If you believe that Cut Cap and Balance is worse than leaving the debt ceiling where it is let the checks and balances do their job and prevent that legislation from passing. Either way, the checks and balances are in place to support you ...

Which poll gives you that information? Here's a poll that gives a very different answer - only 28% of Americans support only spending cuts while 66% support a combination of spending cuts and tax increases.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/18/politics/main20080496.shtml

 

The cut, cap and balance plan is one from the extreme economic right, not from moderates, and it's proposed constitutional 'balanced budget' amendment is insanity.

 

@Viper1. While you're correct in saying that the government will pay interest on its debts first (as it is constitutionally oblidged to do) you're incorrect in saying that it will have to add new programs to go over its debt limit. Its costs for existing programs are above its revenues - as such things like social security might not be able to be paid until the debt ceiling is raised.

the bolded is a complete lie. aside form the fact that after we pay the interest on the debt, pay our soldier pay medicare recipients, we would still have enough to write the Social Security checks. SS payments are completely seperate from our debt and what revenue we have to pay it with. its filed completely diffferent, they have no correlation on each other, and besides, we are supposed to have a social security trust fund. or thats what politicians have been telling us since SS inception... *wink wink nudge nudge*

I'm no expert on the matter but my understanding is that social security in the US is self funding in that the revenues exceed the outlays, nevertheless those revenues form a part of the net revenues of the US government and in the absence of being able to raise the debt ceiling social security payments may not be of high enough priority - the revenue might be routed elsewhere. I don't know what the priority of payments is (apart from interest being top priority to avoid default) but there is a real chance social security isn't up there - there are millions of people employed by the federal government afterall.



thismeintiel said:
thranx said:
HappySqurriel said:
Rath said:
HappySqurriel said:
 


How many Americans have debt that is almost 7 times their household income and are spending 50% more than they earn every month?


Yes the American deficit is well and truly out of control at the moment (and yes trillions of dollars do need to be made up in savings and/or revenue), that doesn't mean that having a constitutional inability to spend more than is earnt in any given period won't be crippling. In developed countries even the healthiest economies sometimes have deficit years.

With proper budgeting practices deficits are entirely unnecessary ...

If you collect 5% or 10% more money that you spend and save it to ensure that spending levels can be maintained in the case of a economic shock, or increased in the case of war, and if you expend this fund you cut discretionary spending and increase taxes to cover the shortfall.

You mean keep a sensible budget and only buy/spend what you can afford and save the rest for a rainy day? Sounds right to me, and pretty basic too. You would think the government of the United States would realise this. Its amazing how bad spending has spun out of control.

Well, it's not their money, so they don't give a shit what they do with it.  And really, they don't need to cut any programs like Social Security or Medicare.  All they need to do is look at "pork" spending.  It wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that half of taxpayers' money is spent on Congressmen's pet projects and/or given out to their buddies as "business deals."  Let's not forget that report that came out months ago that showed government had 100's of redundant committees/agencies/programs that were given jobs/goals that were already being handled by another agency or program.  Was anything done to those redundant government bodies?  Nope.

And now we want to save money by forming and giving Congress's taxing power to some stupid committee that will probably be all show and no action.  Who wants to bet that those on the committee will also get a huge raise?  Way to save.  In the end, it's become like going to a mall and giving a huge wad of cash to a known shopaholic, then expecting them not to blow it all while you use the restroom.

That's just not true....

We currently need to cut about 11-15% of the budget to be budget nuetral....

Here is the budget.

 

 

 

Where are you putting your cuts that doesn't effect medicare or social security?  Only way you could do that is by reducing military spending to below libretarian level... shut down all military bases, greatly cut back.

And doing that greatly ignores the fact that Social Security and Medicare costs are rising, meaning you'd need Futher cuts.  Don't make it complete deficit reducation and those two and Interest payments go up.



Rath said:
osamanobama said:

the bolded is a complete lie. aside form the fact that after we pay the interest on the debt, pay our soldier pay medicare recipients, we would still have enough to write the Social Security checks. SS payments are completely seperate from our debt and what revenue we have to pay it with. its filed completely diffferent, they have no correlation on each other, and besides, we are supposed to have a social security trust fund. or thats what politicians have been telling us since SS inception... *wink wink nudge nudge*

I'm no expert on the matter but my understanding is that social security in the US is self funding in that the revenues exceed the outlays, nevertheless those revenues form a part of the net revenues of the US government and in the absence of being able to raise the debt ceiling social security payments may not be of high enough priority - the revenue might be routed elsewhere. I don't know what the priority of payments is (apart from interest being top priority to avoid default) but there is a real chance social security isn't up there - there are millions of people employed by the federal government afterall.

Revenues now no longer exceed outlays.  That's why it is now stated taht the entitlement programs are insolvent.  However, there is still enough to fund them for several more years before the tap actually runs dry.

As for whether they will get paid if the debt ceiling is not increased, I've already stated several tims in this thread that they will be paid.  Anything already appropriated in the budget is going to get paid.   All the debt ceiling increase would pay for are spending that has been approved but not appropriated yet.



The rEVOLution is not being televised