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Forums - Politics - 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

Kantor said:

1) I still don't see the disadvantage of the Civil Rights Act. And that's only true today because of enforced equality.

2) Granted, America's education system is absolute garbage. The solution to that, however, is not to abolish federal education entirely - it's to reform it. The right-wing states will undoubtedly want to spend less money on education, so the quality of education will decrease further. It should be something that stays level across the country (and ideally, across the world) - that's one of the very few left-wing views I hold.

3) NATO and the UN have never forced America into anything. The Gulf War, the Afghan invasion and the Iraq war were all America's doing. Indeed, it used the UN and NATO to get support for them. If not for NATO, you would have invaded Iraq alone. And there is nothing either organisation can do to force you into doing something. You will never be sanctioned or attacked, and probably not even condemned. Besides which, NATO and the UN are both defensive organisations which, in general, oppose war, so this reasoning makes no sense.

4) Do you really want to be carrying around lumps of gold and melting them down when you want to pay for something? It's not the idea here that's the problem as much as the sentiment. It shows he is willing to pander to the Constitution, which, yes, was a revolutionary (literally) document 200 years ago, but is still 200 years old. Times, society and knowledge all change in 200 years.

5) I see what you mean, and that's generally quite a good idea. But some states will become havens of intolerance, and that's never a good thing.

6) Obama can't balance the budget with income tax, and any Republican would have difficulty with it. It brings in $937 million a year, which is larger than any single item of spending on the budget. To balance that budget would require spending cuts, from today, of $2.311 trillion. That's pretty much impossible. I would love to abolish income tax as leader. I would also love to give everyone a free car, reduce crime to zero and colonise the moon. None of these things are possible in the short term.

7) What happened when you tried non-interventionism? You led the entire world into a massive war.  And you had to get involved, because Japan attacked you. If you had taken some time to actually defend your interests, none of that would have happened. Would you deny that the world is a safer place now than in the 1930s, including for America?

8) Private school is a brilliant idea, and I'm glad it exists. There are, however, people who cannot afford private school. Perhaps very cheap schools would start for them, but they would have no funding. Therefore, their teachers would be paid less. Therefore, even half-decent teachers would not want to teach there. Therefore, they would suck. That's a massive plutocracy - the quality of your education is dependent upon your wealth to such an extent that it is nearly impossible to succeed if you are not rich.

So I stand by my statement that Ron Paul is insane.

1. So business discrimination is only dissolved by government force?  Considering the movement itself, I'd say the peopel themelves were already moving toward such notions and by today would have cicumstnaces exactly as the one I described.

2. Right wing spend less money?  Didn't George W. Bush give education the largest budgetary increase in US history?  Lot of good that did.  Money itself isn't the problem.  It's the attitude toward education as a nation, the reduced role parents play in it and the lack of real world applied education studies.   This used to be a country of trades and now it's a country of services thanks to the failed direction of government education.

3. So the UN didn't push us into Libya, eh?  As for Iraq, we never should have went..period.  WMD's?  Are you kidding me?  The UN is no longer a defensive body.  It, along with the US, not engages in preventative war.  Tell me, where is the UN and NATO in central Africa?   Where is most needed in this world.  Nowhere to be found.  Why?  Because central Africa doesn't serve our intersts or supply our oil.   But the UN went into Libya...because it's the largest oil reserves in Africa and 9th in the world.

4. You do recall that gold coins exist, yes?   Or the fact that less than 1/10th of the US currency is actually held in hard currency (cash and coins).  That means 9/10 th's are nothign but financial documents (paper and digital) valued ot the dollar.   Along with gold (and silver) coinage, a competing currency could be the same type of financial documents only valued on gold.

5. Some might though again you go back to the idea of voting with yoru feet.  If a state gets bad, people move and the state government will be forced to change.

6. Doesn't have to be short term, just moving in the right direction.  Obama is rasiing the debt ceiling and adding almost $4 trillion to our deficit this year alone.  Why not close 90% of our 900 foreign military bases, move to an opt in/opt out medicare/medicaid/social security system, restore the concpet of American manufacturing and hold the debt ceiling as an actual ceiling and it won't take but a decade the and debt is gone with no income tax needed.

7. This is simply ridiculous.  After the Treaty of Versailles, any of the big European nations could have stopped Hitler from rising to power but they did nothing.  Not even after he invaded part of France in the early 1930's.  In fact, France didn't even try to stop him at all.  The treaty stated Germany's military was only allowed to be so big but when Hitler began increasing everything well beyond those limits, nobody is Europe said anything about it, much less tried to bring him into a tribunal. 

8. Which is the whole point of school vouchers.

Kantor said:
Kasz216 said:


Waaaaaaait...

are you blaming the US for WW2?  How does that work?

It wasn't the USA's fault as such. The blame lies mainly with Germany, and partially with Britain, France, Italy and Japan.

America, however, could quite easily have stopped it from happening. It was the only country in the world that could possibly challenge Germany single-handed, and if America started to fight, everyone else would have, as well. Going further back than that, if the USA had joined the League of Nations, none of this would have started in the first place.

Rather silly to blame WW2 on our non-interventionist policy at the time.   Let's reverse that and ask do you think we'd have modern terrorism if we stayed out of the Middle East after 1940?



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Viper1 said:

1. So business discrimination is only dissolved by government force?  Considering the movement itself, I'd say the peopel themelves were already moving toward such notions and by today would have cicumstnaces exactly as the one I described.

2. Right wing spend less money?  Didn't George W. Bush give education the largest budgetary increase in US history?  Lot of good that did.  Money itself isn't the problem.  It's the attitude toward education as a nation, the reduced role parents play in it and the lack of real world applied education studies.   This used to be a country of trades and now it's a country of services thanks to the failed direction of government education.

3. So the UN didn't push us into Libya, eh?  As for Iraq, we never should have went..period.  WMD's?  Are you kidding me?  The UN is no longer a defensive body.  It, along with the US, not engages in preventative war.  Tell me, where is the UN and NATO in central Africa?   Where is most needed in this world.  Nowhere to be found.  Why?  Because central Africa doesn't serve our intersts or supply our oil.   But the UN went into Libya...because it's the largest oil reserves in Africa and 9th in the world.

4. You do recall that gold coins exist, yes?   Or the fact that less than 1/10th of the US currency is actually held in hard currency (cash and coins).  That means 9/10 th's are nothign but financial documents (paper and digital) valued ot the dollar.   Along with gold (and silver) coinage, a competing currency could be the same type of financial documents only valued on gold.

5. Some might though again you go back to the idea of voting with yoru feet.  If a state gets bad, people move and the state government will be forced to change.

6. Doesn't have to be short term, just moving in the right direction.  Obama is rasiing the debt ceiling and adding almost $4 trillion to our deficit this year alone.  Why not close 90% of our 900 foreign military bases, move to an opt in/opt out medicare/medicaid/social security system, restore the concpet of American manufacturing and hold the debt ceiling as an actual ceiling and it won't take but a decade the and debt is gone with no income tax needed.

7. This is simply ridiculous.  After the Treaty of Versailles, any of the big European nations could have stopped Hitler from rising to power but they did nothing.  Not even after he invaded part of France in the early 1930's.  In fact, France didn't even try to stop him at all.  The treaty stated Germany's military was only allowed to be so big but when Hitler began increasing everything well beyond those limits, nobody is Europe said anything about it, much less tried to bring him into a tribunal. 

8. Which is the whole point of school vouchers.

Kantor said:
Kasz216 said:


Waaaaaaait...

are you blaming the US for WW2?  How does that work?

It wasn't the USA's fault as such. The blame lies mainly with Germany, and partially with Britain, France, Italy and Japan.

America, however, could quite easily have stopped it from happening. It was the only country in the world that could possibly challenge Germany single-handed, and if America started to fight, everyone else would have, as well. Going further back than that, if the USA had joined the League of Nations, none of this would have started in the first place.

Rather silly to blame WW2 on our non-interventionist policy at the time.   Let's reverse that and ask do you think we'd have modern terrorism if we stayed out of the Middle East after 1940?

1) You don't think racists still exist in the USA despite the fact that it's illegal?

2) George Bush was a crappy President in general. The core of the right-wing is low taxation and low spending. And I agree, the American education system sucks, but removing funding isn't going to fix that. Fixing it will be difficult.

3) No, the UN did not push you into Libya. The UN has nearly 200 member nations, and how many of them helped with the no-fly zone? Iraq was Bush and Blair's idea, they did it in violation of the United Nations. Besides which, the Security Council dominates the UN, so the USA has more power over it than any other country. In fact, Russia and China calm it down, if anything. Also, the UN is in Central Africa. It's just not supported there by its member nations. Are you really saying the world would be better off with no United Nations? We would have destroyed ourselves 40 years ago.

4) Let's just agree to disagree here. It's not a huge issue anyway.

5) In that way, every corrupt country ever should have collapsed. Why do people still live in North Korea, China, Libya and Iran?

6) Because that would force tens of millions of people into starvation and decrease life expectancy, and would be an enormous national security risk?

7) Nobody in Europe did anything about it because America refused to get involved. Hitler was extraordinarily powerful - he defeated France in a week, came close to invading the UK, and was able to fight the UK, USA and Soviet Union combined before he messed everything up. If America hadn't got involved at all, he probably would have won.

8) Vouchers are fine, I suppose.

And if we'd stayed out of the Middle East after the war, no, we wouldn't have modern terrorism, but I can guarantee you that we would have had something much worse.



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Kantor said:
Kasz216 said:
Kantor said:
 

7) What happened when you tried non-interventionism? You led the entire world into a massive war.  And you had to get involved, because Japan attacked you. If you had taken some time to actually defend your interests, none of that would have happened. Would you deny that the world is a safer place now than in the 1930s, including for America?

 


Waaaaaaait...

are you blaming the US for WW2?  How does that work?

It wasn't the USA's fault as such. The blame lies mainly with Germany, and partially with Britain, France, Italy and Japan.

America, however, could quite easily have stopped it from happening. It was the only country in the world that could possibly challenge Germany single-handed, and if America started to fight, everyone else would have, as well. Going further back than that, if the USA had joined the League of Nations, none of this would have started in the first place.

I don't see how the US joining the League of Nations would of stopped WW2.

The league of nations collapsed because of WW2.  Not because of America not being involved.

While never a member the US worked with the league pretty well...

The nations that left... left to start WW2, that would of happened either way.

The League of Nations really wasn't fundamentally different from the UN today... the main differences were Super powers and Nuclear Weapons exist now... and didn't before WW2.   Well that and it required unanimous approval rather then just majority approval with out a superpower veto.

There really is nothing the LoN could do to stop a World War.  There is nothing the UN could do to stop a World War either.  Afterall the Cold war almost got hot... and most assuridly would have without M.A.D..

 

I feel like your overestimating US military power at the time as well.  It took a long time for the US military to gear up and it's main advantage was it wasn't being bombed.  The US would still hold said advantage... but would the US in the war sooner change that much?

What if Hitler, facing the US as well realizes he needs Stalin and doesn't betray him?

What if, the United States enters the war in the beggining... and backs hitler?

Not unheard of when you consider FDR's fondnset of Stalin and the fact that the holocaust was not common knowledge.  There was a lot of public support for the Axis powers before Pearl Harbor.

 



Let's not forget that a large reason no one stood up to Hitler right off was because Germany owed a lot of money to many nations (including the US). Had one of those nations stood up to him, Hitler would have stopped drafting bank notes to them.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

Whoever is republican candidate with strickiest monetary policy views.

We need America to stop printing empty dollars.



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