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Forums - Gaming - Zelda's problem is Nintendo thinks a Adventure Games are RPGs

richardhutnik on 27 May 2011
Play4Fun said:

Will you people stop bringing this Malstom BS here!

The man is a fool! Stop acting like he is some kind of Gaming Industry genius!

Apparently can't stop posts referring to Pachter, and then Malstom's stuff also shows up.  HipHop Gamers shows up on here to.  Maybe people think it is sort of part of the community's identity to post stuff on this.  I thought Malstom did have some interesting insights from time to time though.



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richardhutnik on 27 May 2011
Kenryoku_Maxis said:

Also, Zelda was originally classified as an Action/Adventure RPG.  And has been confirmed by Miyaoto multiple times over the years to be its official classification.  Plus, may I remind you of Zelda II; Adventure of Link.  In before massive thread meltdown.

When has Nintendo or Miyamoto ever attempted to position Zelda in the RPG category, unless referencing Zelda II, or putting action-adventure and RPGs together in one larger categories?



Onibaka on 27 May 2011

After reading the thread, I think that  the title should be:

"Zelda's problem is Nintendo thinks Puzzle Games are Adventure Games"



Raze on 27 May 2011
liquidninja said:

As a result the latest Zeldas have a number of issues:

"-The emphasis on puzzles as the substance of the game…
-Linearity…
-The joke called the combat system and how little combat is in Zelda…
-Too much dialogue…
-Bad storylines or narratives in general…"

You quoted this.. who said this? Zelda game shave some of the best storylines around.



The Carnival of Shadows - Folk Punk from Asbury Park, New Jersey

http://www.thecarnivalofshadows.com 


Resident_Hazard on 27 May 2011
padib said:
Resident_Hazard said:

Zelda has always been action-adventure.  The only one to be even a little RPG-ish was Zelda II on the NES.  

 

The problem with Zelda games is a lack of originality in the storytelling.  Recycling the same characters, plots, plot points, plot twists, and predictable stage and puzzle layout.  The series changes graphically, sometimes drastically, but hasn't really evolved since Ocarina of Time.  Majora's Mask, at least, had a really fantastic original storyline.

 

And funny thing about that one (MM) is that it was a full recycling of the OOT NPCs and features :) I think it's not so much how the elements are reused, but more how deep and intricate their new connection to one another resulting in the recycling process.

To say that TP felt empty is not an exaggeration. I believe Skyward Sword will address that. The demo maps seemed much more detailed,  and the boundaries more tight, giving the player more juice per square inch.

I really think Nintendo should hire us as consultants :)

You know, that's true, MM did reuse some characters and elements from OoT.  The fact that the game had a new setting, additional characters, and a completely different and unique plot helped it a lot.  Also, not being another "oh noes gotta save Zelda from Ganon again" plot helped things.  Majora's Mask also focused a lot more on helping regular NPC's and helping them with their problems than any other Zelda, which was cool.  I particularly liked protecting a farm from aliens.  I still can't believe that was in a Zelda game!

And yes, Nintendo needs us as consultants.  At the very least, they need the balls to not only have original ideas for games and game design (and plots), but they need to have the balls to actually make the damn things.  



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Resident_Hazard on 27 May 2011
Raze said:
liquidninja said:

As a result the latest Zeldas have a number of issues:

"-The emphasis on puzzles as the substance of the game…
-Linearity…
-The joke called the combat system and how little combat is in Zelda…
-Too much dialogue…
-Bad storylines or narratives in general…"

You quoted this.. who said this? Zelda game shave some of the best storylines around.

Actually, Zelda games have only had about two or three storylines.  Link's Awakening, Majora's Mask... And all the rest where Link saves Hyrule and Zelda from Ganon.

It's like, every 4 years, Hitler comes back, kills Jews, kidnaps Europe--and the US, England, and Russia have to assemble the Triforce again to beat him.  



Raze on 27 May 2011
Resident_Hazard said:
Raze said:
liquidninja said:

As a result the latest Zeldas have a number of issues:

"-The emphasis on puzzles as the substance of the game…
-Linearity…
-The joke called the combat system and how little combat is in Zelda…
-Too much dialogue…
-Bad storylines or narratives in general…"

You quoted this.. who said this? Zelda game shave some of the best storylines around.

Actually, Zelda games have only had about two or three storylines.  Link's Awakening, Majora's Mask... And all the rest where Link saves Hyrule and Zelda from Ganon.

It's like, every 4 years, Hitler comes back, kills Jews, kidnaps Europe--and the US, England, and Russia have to assemble the Triforce again to beat him.  

Yup, going by this, All shakespeare wrote about was some people, and he killed them all off at the end, save 1 to tell the stor.y There, I saved you from ever having to read Shakespeare. =P

OOT had a great storyline, the parallels of 7 years, the relationships and how they were affected over time, the ravaging of the lands that took place.

Twillight Princess and the directly affected variants of the shadow world and the light world, the ongloing story of link's girlfriend (whatever her name was -Ilya?) etc.

The only one that had a pretty meh storyline was Wind Waker.



The Carnival of Shadows - Folk Punk from Asbury Park, New Jersey

http://www.thecarnivalofshadows.com 


richardhutnik on 28 May 2011
Onibaka said:

After reading the thread, I think that  the title should be:

"Zelda's problem is Nintendo thinks Puzzle Games are Adventure Games"

Thing is that adventures have historically been a series of puzzles embedded in a story.  You advanced the story by figuring out puzzles.  Zelda is more action oriented than your usual adventure games.



demonfox13 on 28 May 2011
okr said:

I always thought Malstrom isn't nearly as smart as a few people think but this blog post proves he's even less smarter than I thought.

Quote: "What I am saying is that what you call Zelda today is nothing more than a modern day version of King’s Quest or Myst" 
=> This is the dumbest sentence in an overall remarkably dumb blog post. At the same time it manages to downplay The Legend of Zelda (one of my most favourite franchises and imo the best action-adventure franchise ever created) and the graphic/point&click adventure genre (one of my all-time most favourite genres). Even Myst - a game I hate -  doesn't deserve such a ridiculous comparison.

Malstrom's blog post reminds me of two other observations I have made over the past years:

- The whole gaming industry (developers, publishers, journalists) and the fans of this industry more and more have problems with the definining of genres, especially with the adventure genre as a whole (one of the oldest ones) which today is tacked on every game people want (look up e.g. Endless Ocean in the VGC database, or - yes - Zelda games), but at the same time the graphic/point & click adventure games belong to a [in NA media even despite the recent success of Telltale supposedly dead] adventure subgenre which seems to be only good anymore for the strangest comparisons. Modern Zeldas are like graphic adventure games...yes, of course, Mr. Malstrom.

- "Nintendo-only" fans (i.e. the fans that only seem to care about this one company and its fate) are the strangest fanbase. Not the most annoying one, but the strangest. No other fanbase seem to spend most of their time thinking about what Nintendo could have probably done wrong again, while at the same time they totally ignore that their most favourite company is already by far the most successful and influential one this industry ever had. I never understood what these die-hard Nintendo-only fans want with their complaints: Even more success, even more influence for Nintendo?

If I'm not mistaken the last three Zelda games sold around 15 million copies and got excellent (TP even outstanding) ratings.


I tried to blog and so far have gone from Commodore 64 and Atari 2600 , reaching up to Neo- Geo at the moment. Since you are well versed, I wouldn't mind your opinion on my blog and any feedback dude. I do try not to be fanboyish with it either, it's kinda like an Ode to video games history you know?

OT: I do like Zelda but just not as much as the fans. I don't see anything special about it and I do feel it hasn't aged well. Granted I think Majora's Mask was superior to OOT, just like I liked A Link to the Past over 1st Zelda  and Adventures of Link. The concept in Majora's Mask has aged much better than OOT. To me Zelda feels more magical in puzzles and the world itself than just pure gameplay (which isn't a bad thing).



Make games, not war (that goes for ridiculous fanboys)

I may be the next Maelstorm or not, you be the judge http://videogamesgrow.blogspot.com/  hopefully I can be more of an asset than a fanboy to VGC hehe.

Resident_Hazard on 28 May 2011
Raze said:
Resident_Hazard said:
Raze said:

You quoted this.. who said this? Zelda game shave some of the best storylines around.

Actually, Zelda games have only had about two or three storylines.  Link's Awakening, Majora's Mask... And all the rest where Link saves Hyrule and Zelda from Ganon.

It's like, every 4 years, Hitler comes back, kills Jews, kidnaps Europe--and the US, England, and Russia have to assemble the Triforce again to beat him.  

Yup, going by this, All shakespeare wrote about was some people, and he killed them all off at the end, save 1 to tell the stor.y There, I saved you from ever having to read Shakespeare. =P

OOT had a great storyline, the parallels of 7 years, the relationships and how they were affected over time, the ravaging of the lands that took place.

Twillight Princess and the directly affected variants of the shadow world and the light world, the ongloing story of link's girlfriend (whatever her name was -Ilya?) etc.

The only one that had a pretty meh storyline was Wind Waker.

I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be considered "unique" storytelling if the "2 worlds" or "light world/dark world" themes have been used as many times as the Zelda franchise has.  Three times at the very least in Link to the Past, OoT, and Twilight Princess.  Hell, the original Zelda featured two different quests, and the second was little more than a re-arranged version of the first.

Shakespeare wrote dramas with different characters, different plots, different themes.  Zelda games use the same characters, same plots, and largely, the same themes.  A great many of the items and weapons at Link's disposal appear in most, if not all, of the games in the franchise, and he earns everything pretty much the same manner from one game to the next.   They really aren't that original.

Certainly not on par with Shakespeare.  You really twisted the hell out of my statement.