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Rath said:
vlad321 said:
 


So then here is my question. That handful of people, why do you keep them in jail? They end up being paid for by the taxpayers, the people they damaged  live with knowing the criminal is still alive, and a whole bunch of other problems that would be simplified if the heinous criminal was just killed right off the bat.


Without trials and appeals you mean?

That would just demean the entire system.

 

With trials and appeals it works out to be cheaper to keep them in prison.

So wait, are you claiming people that are sentence to life don't go through trials and appeals?



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

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vlad321 said:


1. SO every town had a murderer all the time? Every village had nonstop executions? THe population back then was much, much smaller than it is today, and even in big cities we don't get all that many heinous crimes. Your claim is baseless and outright wrong. Furthermore you imply that everyone in the town would go see these, not just the ones who have some interest in them. Great example right here, we're discussing a cae that happened a world away, never woudl have ever known about this thing if it had happened even more than 15 years ago.

2. Maybe you aren't aware that that's why we there are different degrees of murder as sentences that weight the purpose. Also, rape is fairly blakc and white, and involvement of children too, where purpose really doesn't matter one bit other than the fact it's malicious.

3. I made it clear perfect clear before, maybe you didn't catch on. It's a form of "hell" that is not made up. The concept of hell already keeps a huge part of populations in check already. I don't see how a very tangible form of "hell" wouldn't be even more effective.

1. Most towns had a murderer at some point. I don't see what's the deal of your obssession with "non-stop executions". Most people would go and see these, as it was a passtime (not much to do back then). How is my claim baseless? If you don't believe me, then look it up.

2. Really. The reason why someone commits rape doesn't matter? Do you think that some magical force posseses the rapist, and he commits such an act?

3. Except it was practiced in the past, and it failed miserably. Honestly, deny it all you want, but this is a fetish for you. You should be a villain in a dystopian novel.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

vlad321 said:
highwaystar101 said:
vlad321 said:
highwaystar101 said:

Oh yeah, absolutely. There are people like serial killers who it's probably better to just never let out because teh risk would be too high, even after attempted reform.


So then here is my question. That handful of people, why do you keep them in jail? They end up being paid for by the taxpayers, the people they damaged  live with knowing the criminal is still alive, and a whole bunch of other problems that would be simplified if the heinous criminal was just killed right off the bat.

Killing every person we deem unfit to re-enter society would be committing a worse crime than of them could have ever committed.

That is true, because many cases of "social unworthiness" can be just subjective. However we both know there are some plain objective cases. Furthermore, as I mentoined above each action has two parts, purpose and consequence, and if we just kill the people convicted of premeditated murder it would be nothing alike. One's purpose is malice, the other is keeping society safe and setting an example. If you will claim that such punishment is worse, then you'd have to find a good argument about how the latter intent is worse than the former.

*flip flop* I agree the latter intent is not worse, but it doesn't need to be, because killing people we deem dangerous to society is still pretty bad.



sapphi_snake said:
vlad321 said:


1. SO every town had a murderer all the time? Every village had nonstop executions? THe population back then was much, much smaller than it is today, and even in big cities we don't get all that many heinous crimes. Your claim is baseless and outright wrong. Furthermore you imply that everyone in the town would go see these, not just the ones who have some interest in them. Great example right here, we're discussing a cae that happened a world away, never woudl have ever known about this thing if it had happened even more than 15 years ago.

2. Maybe you aren't aware that that's why we there are different degrees of murder as sentences that weight the purpose. Also, rape is fairly blakc and white, and involvement of children too, where purpose really doesn't matter one bit other than the fact it's malicious.

3. I made it clear perfect clear before, maybe you didn't catch on. It's a form of "hell" that is not made up. The concept of hell already keeps a huge part of populations in check already. I don't see how a very tangible form of "hell" wouldn't be even more effective.

1. Most towns had a murderer at some point. I don't see what's the deal of your obssession with "non-stop executions". Most people would go and see these, as it was a passtime (not much to do back then). How is my claim baseless? If you don't believe me, then look it up.

2. Really. The reason why someone commits rape doesn't matter? Do you think that some magical force posseses the rapist, and he commits such an act?

3. Except it was practiced in the past, and it failed miserably. Honestly, deny it all you want, but this is a fetish for you. You should be a villain in a dystopian novel.


1. Look it up? I really want you to show me how it has happened that every village seems to have murderers left and right, given the fact villages were tiny by our standards. Furthermore I am interested to know why you think the whole town turned out to see executions. In the end, proliferation was mostly done by word of mouth, since not that many people saw them first hand. You have either watched one too many movies, or are focusing too much on the french revolution, in either case you are wrong.

2. Ok, I want you to come up with one single good reason for rape that doesn't fall under the banner of "black." Please, entertain me.

3. Oh, you mean it was practiced back when such a thing as rule of law didn't even existed? I see that your historical knowledge is nice, yet you lack perspective on the wider picture.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

highwaystar101 said:
vlad321 said:
highwaystar101 said:
vlad321 said:
highwaystar101 said:

Oh yeah, absolutely. There are people like serial killers who it's probably better to just never let out because teh risk would be too high, even after attempted reform.


So then here is my question. That handful of people, why do you keep them in jail? They end up being paid for by the taxpayers, the people they damaged  live with knowing the criminal is still alive, and a whole bunch of other problems that would be simplified if the heinous criminal was just killed right off the bat.

Killing every person we deem unfit to re-enter society would be committing a worse crime than of them could have ever committed.

That is true, because many cases of "social unworthiness" can be just subjective. However we both know there are some plain objective cases. Furthermore, as I mentoined above each action has two parts, purpose and consequence, and if we just kill the people convicted of premeditated murder it would be nothing alike. One's purpose is malice, the other is keeping society safe and setting an example. If you will claim that such punishment is worse, then you'd have to find a good argument about how the latter intent is worse than the former.

*flip flop* I agree the latter intent is not worse, but it doesn't need to be, because killing people we deem dangerous to society is still pretty bad.

So then it is not worse, just pretty bad. I will try to refute that some more. Why is it still pretty bad if the people dangerous to society, the ones who have already harmed it and not the ones with potential to do so, are simply removed entirely, and are not left to cause other forms of burden on said society?



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

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vlad321 said:


1. Look it up? I really want you to show me how it has happened that every village seems to have murderers left and right, given the fact villages were tiny by our standards. Furthermore I am interested to know why you think the whole town turned out to see executions. In the end, proliferation was mostly done by word of mouth, since not that many people saw them first hand. You have either watched one too many movies, or are focusing too much on the french revolution, in either case you are wrong.

2. Ok, I want you to come up with one single good reason for rape that doesn't fall under the banner of "black." Please, entertain me.

3. Oh, you mean it was practiced back when such a thing as rule of law didn't even existed? I see that your historical knowledge is nice, yet you lack perspective on the wider picture.

1. If your knowledge of history is so limited (you are American after all), buy this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Public-Executions-Ancient-Rome-Present/dp/0785821198

2. If a crazy person commits rape, should he be punished for it?

3. The Rule of Law means that no one is above the law (specifically the leader). It says nothing about nature of the laws. The ideea is that this form of punishment was practiced, and it didn't work. It also goes against the principles of modern societies.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
vlad321 said:


1. Look it up? I really want you to show me how it has happened that every village seems to have murderers left and right, given the fact villages were tiny by our standards. Furthermore I am interested to know why you think the whole town turned out to see executions. In the end, proliferation was mostly done by word of mouth, since not that many people saw them first hand. You have either watched one too many movies, or are focusing too much on the french revolution, in either case you are wrong.

2. Ok, I want you to come up with one single good reason for rape that doesn't fall under the banner of "black." Please, entertain me.

3. Oh, you mean it was practiced back when such a thing as rule of law didn't even existed? I see that your historical knowledge is nice, yet you lack perspective on the wider picture.

1. If your knowledge of history is so limited (you are American after all), buy this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Public-Executions-Ancient-Rome-Present/dp/0785821198

2. If a crazy person commits rape, should he be punished for it?

3. The Rule of Law means that no one is above the law (specifically the leader). It says nothing about nature of the laws. The ideea is that this form of punishment was practiced, and it didn't work. It also goes against the principles of modern societies.

1. I find it laughable you think I am American. I nearly majored in history, so I am fairly interested in history. Furthermore when I researched that book, it doesnt seem like it will back up your claim of "most people have seen executions in those days instead of hearing of them by word of mouth," but onnly goes into the gruesome detials of the executions, which funnily enough, is word of mouth, or book in this case. 

2. Go to a woman who was raped and tell her "it's ok, he was just crazy and unstable" and if you don't get beaten ot stabbed, come talk to me. The thought of it entertains me even more than I expected actually.

3. Ok, I don't know how you didn't see this (you aren't exactly the best representative of non-Americans). It didn't work because there was no consistency, unless you can point me to several monarchs/nobles who were executed publicly for actual crimes. Even Lous XVI wasn't executed for any given crime other than "our lives fucking suck dick" and his wife for even less. In modern days there is far more consistency for such punishment to actually send a clear messagf of "if A,B,or C then this" instead of "if A, B, C, and maybe D E F G, and you aren't someone of importance as deemd by person X, then this."



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

vlad321 said:

1. I find it laughable you think I am American. I nearly majored in history, so I am fairly interested in history. Furthermore when I researched that book, it doesnt seem like it will back up your claim of "most people have seen executions in those days instead of hearing of them by word of mouth," but onnly goes into the gruesome detials of the executions, which funnily enough, is word of mouth, or book in this case. 

2. Go to a woman who was raped and tell her "it's ok, he was just crazy and unstable" and if you don't get beaten ot stabbed, come talk to me. The thought of it entertains me even more than I expected actually.

3. Ok, I don't know how you didn't see this (you aren't exactly the best representative of non-Americans). It didn't work because there was no consistency, unless you can point me to several monarchs/nobles who were executed publicly for actual crimes. Even Lous XVI wasn't executed for any given crime other than "our lives fucking suck dick" and his wife for even less. In modern days there is far more consistency for such punishment to actually send a clear messagf of "if A,B,or C then this" instead of "if A, B, C, and maybe D E F G, and you aren't someone of importance as deemd by person X, then this."

1. The book describes PUBLIC executions (emphasis on the word public). Grousome events that served as entertainment for the masses. If you search for other books on the topic, you'll know that it was a favorite passtime of many to witness such things (there were very few forms of entertainment, and if you do a historical analysis you'll see that the limited the variety of passtimes, the more popular the existing passtimes are). You yourself mentioned that the populations of cities were small, therefore it was quite easy for everyone to come and see the execution. Of course you'll just ignore this, not look up anything for yourself, and keep throwing personal insults.

2. You're basing your argument on the histerical reaction of an emotional woman. And the bolded part only proves my point that you fetishize violence. You should really see a psychiatrist.

3. It's quite irrelevant who was punished. That should probably discourage most from commiting crimes, as I doubt many people would genuenly think that if a king's never been punished, there was a chance they wouldn't. The king was seen as divine and untouchable, and no one would ever think they'd ever benefit the privileges of kings. You may see a king as just a regular person, but back Medieval man didn't think like this (actually, up 'till close to the French Revolution people didn't think like this at all).

When punishments like this were the norm, and they were carried out in public, people were more or less desentisezed of violence. Even that shows that your ideea is doomed to fail.

Your arguments are base soley on emotion, insults, and irrationality. Not to mention that you clearly fetishize violence and torture, so you're probably a psychopath in the making. Not sure I should waste anymore time with this.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

vlad321 said:
highwaystar101 said:
vlad321 said:
highwaystar101 said:
vlad321 said:
highwaystar101 said:

Oh yeah, absolutely. There are people like serial killers who it's probably better to just never let out because teh risk would be too high, even after attempted reform.


So then here is my question. That handful of people, why do you keep them in jail? They end up being paid for by the taxpayers, the people they damaged  live with knowing the criminal is still alive, and a whole bunch of other problems that would be simplified if the heinous criminal was just killed right off the bat.

Killing every person we deem unfit to re-enter society would be committing a worse crime than of them could have ever committed.

That is true, because many cases of "social unworthiness" can be just subjective. However we both know there are some plain objective cases. Furthermore, as I mentoined above each action has two parts, purpose and consequence, and if we just kill the people convicted of premeditated murder it would be nothing alike. One's purpose is malice, the other is keeping society safe and setting an example. If you will claim that such punishment is worse, then you'd have to find a good argument about how the latter intent is worse than the former.

*flip flop* I agree the latter intent is not worse, but it doesn't need to be, because killing people we deem dangerous to society is still pretty bad.

So then it is not worse, just pretty bad. I will try to refute that some more. Why is it still pretty bad if the people dangerous to society, the ones who have already harmed it and not the ones with potential to do so, are simply removed entirely, and are not left to cause other forms of burden on said society?

Because it is hypocritical that our hypothetical justice system has deemed murder punishable by death. We must demonstrate that we can be civil with our justice system.



sapphi_snake said:
vlad321 said:

1. I find it laughable you think I am American. I nearly majored in history, so I am fairly interested in history. Furthermore when I researched that book, it doesnt seem like it will back up your claim of "most people have seen executions in those days instead of hearing of them by word of mouth," but onnly goes into the gruesome detials of the executions, which funnily enough, is word of mouth, or book in this case. 

2. Go to a woman who was raped and tell her "it's ok, he was just crazy and unstable" and if you don't get beaten ot stabbed, come talk to me. The thought of it entertains me even more than I expected actually.

3. Ok, I don't know how you didn't see this (you aren't exactly the best representative of non-Americans). It didn't work because there was no consistency, unless you can point me to several monarchs/nobles who were executed publicly for actual crimes. Even Lous XVI wasn't executed for any given crime other than "our lives fucking suck dick" and his wife for even less. In modern days there is far more consistency for such punishment to actually send a clear messagf of "if A,B,or C then this" instead of "if A, B, C, and maybe D E F G, and you aren't someone of importance as deemd by person X, then this."

1. The book describes PUBLIC executions (emphasis on the word public). Grousome events that served as entertainment for the masses. If you search for other books on the topic, you'll know that it was a favorite passtime of many to witness such things (there were very few forms of entertainment, and if you do a historical analysis you'll see that the limited the variety of passtimes, the more popular the existing passtimes are). You yourself mentioned that the populations of cities were small, therefore it was quite easy for everyone to come and see the execution. Of course you'll just ignore this, not look up anything for yourself, and keep throwing personal insults.

2. You're basing your argument on the histerical reaction of an emotional woman. And the bolded part only proves my point that you fetishize violence. You should really see a psychiatrist.

3. It's quite irrelevant who was punished. That should probably discourage most from commiting crimes, as I doubt many people would genuenly think that if a king's never been punished, there was a chance they wouldn't. The king was seen as divine and untouchable, and no one would ever think they'd ever benefit the privileges of kings. You may see a king as just a regular person, but back Medieval man didn't think like this (actually, up 'till close to the French Revolution people didn't think like this at all).

When punishments like this were the norm, and they were carried out in public, people were more or less desentisezed of violence. Even that shows that your ideea is doomed to fail.

Your arguments are base soley on emotion, insults, and irrationality. Not to mention that you clearly fetishize violence and torture, so you're probably a psychopath in the making. Not sure I should waste anymore time with this.

1. You provided me with a book that deals with public executions, and? How does this prove your point that just about everyone in the olden days was present at executions and din't know about them through word of mouth? Furthermore, the villages are small, how many heinous crimes of the magnitute I talk about do you think occured in them? There are 300 million people in the US, and those crimes aren't even that common with such a large population. If you use your brain a little you will notice that there was not nearly as many horrendous acts of crime back then than there are now. Unless you want to somehow prove to me that people in the olden days were ,proportionally speaking, more prone to committing heinous crimes than they are now.

2. Yes, I am basing my evaluation on the person who has been damaged. What exactly is your point, we shouldn't ? I want you to notice that there are some cases where murder makes sense (the weird scenario of you using a fat man to stop a train to save 5 workers), but I chose rape specifically bcause there are no reasons other than "black." There is 0 justificatoin for it. Your bolded part also shows me how terrible you are at reading comprehension, since I was laughing at the thought of you trying to justify the rapist to the victim by calling him crazy.

3. No it is very much not irrelevant. You had many more innocent people suffer back then, than you do now with a proper justice system. You had many people being unjustly punshied to terrors for crimes that didn't deserve them. Then few that were rightly punished lost alltheir meaning due to the inconsistency in the law. If you don't see this, then I really don't know how else to explain it to you so you can understand.

That's fine with me, your reading comprehension seems to be getting in the way of us having a proper argument anyhow.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835