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Forums - General - Lots of bashing for the belief of God....

trestres on 04 May 2011
sapphi_snake said:
trestres said:

Looks like our discussion was a misunderstanding, since we were both using different definitions for a same word. Both valid, but in different contexts.

No, your definition is invalid in the current English language. The etymology has no relevance to the usage of a word in a given language. You should've used the original term (the Latin term or whatever).

The original term "re ligare" means to "connect once again to". It's not invalid in philosophy, I don't know where you got that idea from.



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sapphi_snake on 04 May 2011
trestres said:
sapphi_snake said:
trestres said:

Looks like our discussion was a misunderstanding, since we were both using different definitions for a same word. Both valid, but in different contexts.

No, your definition is invalid in the current English language. The etymology has no relevance to the usage of a word in a given language. You should've used the original term (the Latin term or whatever).

The original term "re ligare" means to "connect once again to". It's not invalid in philosophy, I don't know where you got that idea from.

Listen, I see we're talking different languages (possibbly literally), so I don't see this going anywhere.



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trestres on 04 May 2011
sapphi_snake said:
trestres said:
sapphi_snake said:
trestres said:

Looks like our discussion was a misunderstanding, since we were both using different definitions for a same word. Both valid, but in different contexts.

No, your definition is invalid in the current English language. The etymology has no relevance to the usage of a word in a given language. You should've used the original term (the Latin term or whatever).

The original term "re ligare" means to "connect once again to". It's not invalid in philosophy, I don't know where you got that idea from.

Listen, I see we're talking different languages (possibbly literally), so I don't see this going anywhere.

Looks like that's the case. Better to drop this one.



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Final-Fan on 04 May 2011
DélioPT said:
Final-Fan said:

1.  I think there is a contradiction going on, or at least I want to nail down which of two contradictory cases is true in your opinion.  The following assumes you go to either Heaven or Hell with no third option, so please correct me if you are now saying there's a third option. 
--A.  You go to Heaven unless you make the active choice of rejecting God.  You KNOW God is real, you just hate him or can't handle the fact of his existence or whatever.*
--B.  You go to Hell unless you make the active choice of taking a "leap of faith" and believing in God even though you have no sufficient worldly justification for believing God exists. 
--* And by the way, I'm not saying you're guilty of this, but a lot of people go around saying that atheists know in their hearts that God is real and they can't stand it so they reject him.  Well fuck those guys, they don't know what's in my heart.  I don't think there's good reason for me to believe God is really out there instead of being something imagined by our ancestors (like the four elements) and perpetuated by culture and tradition. 
2. 
"I would argue that you can't absolve someone of deliberately setting up horrible actions just because there was someone else with free will further down the line."
--"I mean, I doubt Hitler personally murdered any Jews, and if he did it wasn't many; does that mean he bears no responsibility for the Holocaust? "
--Let's say Guy A sets up a situation that he knows for a fact will result in Guy B killing Guy C.  Would you say that Guy A bears responsibility for Guy C's death, or that he is blameless? 

1. There is not a 3rd option to heaven or hell. There is - and i didn`t think of this before - place or places where there is purification/acceptance to enter heaven, like purgatory for instance.
--Still, this doesn`t change the fact that you will go to heaven or hell, it`s just that there isn`t a common ground for all humanity to be judge in the same circunstances.
--For example, those who existed before Christ and those who existed after.
--honestly, those cases can`t have a linear or straight answer.
--In the case where you know who God is - and i mean know that He is the path for salvation - then, as i said before, you either open your heart or you don`t. But even those who believe aren`t free from going to hell, you know? Opening your hearts is a way of loving. Leap of faith isn`t about the amount of proof, is opening your heart. And that means letting Him in.
--And your marked words, although a bit subjective do make a big difference.
Thing is A deals with knowing for a fact and not accepting, B leads with the fact that you know aswell, but you, in another context, still didn`t open up your heart. You start from different places but in one way or another you still decided to open your heart, even if you have different reasons to do so.

2. Even if Hitler didn´t personally kill a single person, the fact is that he initiated a movement of hate, oppression and murder. He was wrong, but so were those who followed him.

1. 
So, what you're saying is that THERE IS a third option, but it's temporary.  This changes things COMPLETELY, because it means you don't have to get fucked for simple non-belief -- once you die, and go to purgatory, there's obviously great evidence for an afterlife, and then you can observe the truth personally and believe in God or reject God and be sorted accordingly. 

But while we're on the subject, no scenario B did NOT involve knowing.  That was the whole POINT, you didn't know.  You weren't willing to open your heart to a fictional character. 

You are misrepresenting both of us in your posts -- this is ridiculous, and it has to stop. 

2. 
If Hitler is responsible for setting up Random Auschwitz Guard, then God is responsible for setting up Hitler. 



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vlad321 on 04 May 2011
DélioPT said:
vlad321 said:
 


And you don't see a problem with two contradicting beliefs, which have the exact same amount of validity (in this case, lack of any), being right?

I also didn't say Cosmic Being (let's call him CB for short) said that you don't feel anything. It just says that what you believe and feel isn't actually there, just made up, a fable, a story, and what you are feeling is just a twisted version of what actually happened.

Funny story by the way, you can influence people's emotions, feelings, and even implant memories so that a person swears by them in court. All that can be done with some very un-spiritual methods.

They just have the same validity, in the sense that they are expressed in the same way, and as i said before, the day will come where one will "see" the truth.

I know what you mean, don`t worry. But it`s the same as the above comment,as they are connected.

As before, one day we will "see" the truth.

So let me get thsi straight. Both have the same validity. Both are expressed similarly. Both contradict the other one. Here is how it stands, that was just one possibility. I can imagine a third where it contradicts those two. Then a fourth that contradicts the previous three. In fact I can imagine, or as you like to put it "see with my heart and psiritual self," an infinite set of circumstances, and each one will contradict every other one in the set. 

Do you realize that by definitoin, everything in the set is false?



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DélioPT on 04 May 2011
Final-Fan said:
 

1. 
So, what you're saying is that THERE IS a third option, but it's temporary.  This changes things COMPLETELY, because it means you don't have to get fucked for simple non-belief -- once you die, and go to purgatory, there's obviously great evidence for an afterlife, and then you can observe the truth personally and believe in God or reject God and be sorted accordingly. 

But while we're on the subject, no scenario B did NOT involve knowing.  That was the whole POINT, you didn't know.  You weren't willing to open your heart to a fictional character. 

You are misrepresenting both of us in your posts -- this is ridiculous, and it has to stop. 

2. 
If Hitler is responsible for setting up Random Auschwitz Guard, then God is responsible for setting up Hitler. 

1. I`m sorry i didn`t mentioned it earlier as i honestly didn`t even thought of that. And i`m sorry for not, in the conversation, stating that God is fair and would never forget those kind of details.
Actually that part of seeing and then believing reminds of the movie Constantine? You saw it? Constantine alreadt saw God, yet he wasn`t set to go to heaven for the sole reason that seeing does not equal believing. Like Thomas did with Jesus.
"You go to Hell unless you make the active choice of taking a "leap of faith" and believing in God even though you have no sufficient worldly justification for believing God exists"
It did, otherwise you wouldn`t mention "have no sufficient worldly justification", this isn´t the same as no proof whatsoever, that`s why i mentioned that these highlighted words word subjective, yet very important.
It`s the same as for the case i referreed a while ago of apparitions and miracles. Your reaction, just for example, was to descredit it. You knew about God, yet you still chose not - for whatever reason.
If you "know" - proved beyong doubt; see by yourself - than the leap of faith has no meaning.
Just to give an example of what i was trying to convey: it`s like when people are afraid to get hurt and avoid relationships. You have the person in front of you that you obviously don`t know completely, yet you must find courage, forget fears and take a leap of faith.
This isn`t a literal example, it`s to show a little bit better what faith means.

But please let me get this straight. Those with non-belief of today aren`t the same that were never talked to about God or Jesus like 3000 year ago. For example, a man of that time did not know God nor never heard about Him, and that`s not the same as a person who has no belief despite knowing who He is, Jesus and being "explained" about Him and still don`t believe. There`s a context for that non-belief part.It`s a really rouch example, but it`s just to show the difference.

If you were concious of this, ignore me then.

2. God made us all, not just Hitler. But that means nothing, no one is set for a path, we make our paths.
You still don`t seem to understand that if you are completely free (free will and liberty) you are completely responsible for the result of your actions. You can`t put not even a single ounce of blame on someone else if you accept that you are free.
Hitler was the sole responsible for his actions as he decided on his own free will.



DélioPT on 04 May 2011
vlad321 said:
DélioPT said:
vlad321 said:
 


And you don't see a problem with two contradicting beliefs, which have the exact same amount of validity (in this case, lack of any), being right?

I also didn't say Cosmic Being (let's call him CB for short) said that you don't feel anything. It just says that what you believe and feel isn't actually there, just made up, a fable, a story, and what you are feeling is just a twisted version of what actually happened.

Funny story by the way, you can influence people's emotions, feelings, and even implant memories so that a person swears by them in court. All that can be done with some very un-spiritual methods.

They just have the same validity, in the sense that they are expressed in the same way, and as i said before, the day will come where one will "see" the truth.

I know what you mean, don`t worry. But it`s the same as the above comment,as they are connected.

As before, one day we will "see" the truth.

So let me get thsi straight. Both have the same validity. Both are expressed similarly. Both contradict the other one. Here is how it stands, that was just one possibility. I can imagine a third where it contradicts those two. Then a fourth that contradicts the previous three. In fact I can imagine, or as you like to put it "see with my heart and psiritual self," an infinite set of circumstances, and each one will contradict every other one in the set. 

Do you realize that by definitoin, everything in the set is false?

You can imagine a million of them if you want to. Copy paste everything and you still don`t prove nothing.
Saying they are all the same, therefore false is not true. Just means that they obey the same explanational patterns. Reasoning is limited in it`s nature.
As i said before, one day we will all know which one is the truth and that will be the ultimate proof, if you will. There will be no denying after that.



vlad321 on 04 May 2011
DélioPT said:
vlad321 said:
DélioPT said:
vlad321 said:
 


And you don't see a problem with two contradicting beliefs, which have the exact same amount of validity (in this case, lack of any), being right?

I also didn't say Cosmic Being (let's call him CB for short) said that you don't feel anything. It just says that what you believe and feel isn't actually there, just made up, a fable, a story, and what you are feeling is just a twisted version of what actually happened.

Funny story by the way, you can influence people's emotions, feelings, and even implant memories so that a person swears by them in court. All that can be done with some very un-spiritual methods.

They just have the same validity, in the sense that they are expressed in the same way, and as i said before, the day will come where one will "see" the truth.

I know what you mean, don`t worry. But it`s the same as the above comment,as they are connected.

As before, one day we will "see" the truth.

So let me get thsi straight. Both have the same validity. Both are expressed similarly. Both contradict the other one. Here is how it stands, that was just one possibility. I can imagine a third where it contradicts those two. Then a fourth that contradicts the previous three. In fact I can imagine, or as you like to put it "see with my heart and psiritual self," an infinite set of circumstances, and each one will contradict every other one in the set. 

Do you realize that by definitoin, everything in the set is false?

You can imagine a million of them if you want to. Copy paste everything and you still don`t prove nothing.
Saying they are all the same, therefore false is not true. Just means that they obey the same explanational patterns. Reasoning is limited in it`s nature.
As i said before, one day we will all know which one is the truth and that will be the ultimate proof, if you will. There will be no denying after that.

They don't obey the same explanatoinal patterns, they all obey the same spiritual feeling, sight, and faith. If just one of them is wrong based on faith, then all of them are wrong. Since one can't be right without the others being wrong, you run into a problem.

I am not using ANY tangible way of observation. I am only using my spirituality to feel these beliefs. The only way out of this dilemma is if you admit that somehow your spirituality is better than mine. However that means that you are degrading, insulting by your definition, my spirituality so you could feel better about your beliefs.

In the end, I have caught you in a trap on your own terms and your own rules.



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Joelcool7 on 04 May 2011
sapphi_snake said:
Joelcool7 said:

Education is a major stumbling block, and schools today don't educate students in theology. They teach them a few evolution theories and then they are off to University where they learn these few theories in greater detail, still not expanding their knowledge to alternative theology. Then you have a few states/Provinces in various countries where one or two creationist theories are taught alongside evolution. But still those students lack an understanding of other theologies.

LOL, religion and theology have no place in school. And teaching creationism alongside evolution? Seriosuly?


Sapphi not trying to be offensive but this is what I was talking about. Your stereotyping creationism. Creationism is not a single theory that earth was made in seven physical days, like many uneducated Athiests believe. Their are over 12- different creationist theories from protestant Christian scientists that I have heard of not to mention the many theories from scientists around the world.

Creationism is a science based theology just like Evolution. Infact some creationist theories even include Macro Evolution and many include Micro Evolution things we are taught in school. Its highly ignorant to judge all theories but Darwinian evolution as un-scientific.

Plus right in your post you say that theology has no place in school, then why should the theory of Macro Evolution , Big Bang, Abiogenesis? None of those three theories are anymore scientific then the many Creationist theories. None of the three are scientific fact, all of them and infact all the methods of creation I was taught in school all of them were theories.

If theology has no place in schools then no theories at all should be taught. Leave the guessing and faith out of our schools. I agree whole heartedly that nothing un-factual should be taught in school unless it is in a theology course which give all faith based theories equal attention.

So yes your right evolution (Other then Micro) should be kept out of our schools. Theories have no place in the classroom!



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vlad321 on 04 May 2011
Joelcool7 said:
sapphi_snake said:
Joelcool7 said:

Education is a major stumbling block, and schools today don't educate students in theology. They teach them a few evolution theories and then they are off to University where they learn these few theories in greater detail, still not expanding their knowledge to alternative theology. Then you have a few states/Provinces in various countries where one or two creationist theories are taught alongside evolution. But still those students lack an understanding of other theologies.

LOL, religion and theology have no place in school. And teaching creationism alongside evolution? Seriosuly?


Sapphi not trying to be offensive but this is what I was talking about. Your stereotyping creationism. Creationism is not a single theory that earth was made in seven physical days, like many uneducated Athiests believe. Their are over 12- different creationist theories from protestant Christian scientists that I have heard of not to mention the many theories from scientists around the world.

Creationism is a science based theology just like Evolution. Infact some creationist theories even include Macro Evolution and many include Micro Evolution things we are taught in school. Its highly ignorant to judge all theories but Darwinian evolution as un-scientific.

Plus right in your post you say that theology has no place in school, then why should the theory of Macro Evolution , Big Bang, Abiogenesis? None of those three theories are anymore scientific then the many Creationist theories. None of the three are scientific fact, all of them and infact all the methods of creation I was taught in school all of them were theories.

If theology has no place in schools then no theories at all should be taught. Leave the guessing and faith out of our schools. I agree whole heartedly that nothing un-factual should be taught in school unless it is in a theology course which give all faith based theories equal attention.

So yes your right evolution (Other then Micro) should be kept out of our schools. Theories have no place in the classroom!


I have mentioned this many timesin this thread, however any creationist theory is guaranteed to be wrong, just because there is no evidence for it. For further explanation I outlined how any idea that pertains to the creation of existance is wrong, including the atheist one.

People come up with these ideas because they don't want to realize that humanity is absolutely isignificant in the grand scheme of things (really, we are) and want to make themselves feel better by trying to explain existance. Then they, laughably, think that the more people believe their idea, the more correct they are. That is utterly laughable.

The truth is, we don't know shit about the actual creatoin (we do have evidence for the Big Bang and Evolution though, and they aren't actual creation) and anyone with an idea about what happened is wrong, regardless of belief.



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