That`s all i wanted to show it.

I think you have a misconception what faith is and blind faith. Blind faith can actually mean a lot of things i guess. In my opinion it`s unconditional love.
It`s not like we close, yell "lalalala i`m not hearing you" and run at something. There`s no one in this world that can understand everything about everything, not even the Church says that, as that would be playing God.
By blind faith it`s like saying: "ok, i don`t know everything, i don`t understand everything, but i also believe that..." That`s when people make the "infamous" leap of faith (this is one understanding of it): it`s not like we don`t feel anything or understand anything, we just don`t let our limits be bigger than our "faith", bigger than this certainty that we feel and live - very important to remember: we live it..
Even with faith it`s not like people stop trying to understand God. There are many philosophers who tried, try and always will try to understand.

I said love but i didn`t just mean boyfriend/girlfriend love. There`s a lot of love. And for those who felt it, even for a girl or a boy, explaning it like it`s an urge, is really reducing it`s meaning. Love it`s not a quest for self satisfaction nor is it confined to the realm of sexuality. There`s a difference between pleasure and hapiness.

But you are right in one thing, it does all come down to evidence. Thing is, reason can`t make an argument to completely prove or disprove God.
So we need proof, and when i mean proof, i mean: see it, touch it, hear it, smell it. Only then can people believe.
So, in essence, to some people seeing is believing it. problem is that those that so Jesus divided into those we believed He was the son of God and those who didn`t believe.
So, is seeing actually believing it? Probably not.
Then we have apparitions, miracles and our daily lives. And in all cases there will be those we believe and those we don´t.
The bottom line is, especially when concerning to God some people won`t believe until they see Him with their own eyes.

If say it to you: i believe in Him and that in exists in me. You`ll say prove it. I would gladely prove it if only there would be a way to show what i feel and you would believe aswell... probably.

The only thing i can say is: open up your heart to God and you will see what i see.

If thats how you feel, then I do not think there is any way to change your mind. I will point out that many definitions and explanations operate in this manner. When you find something that conflicts with an idea or definition, you often attempt to further clarify the definition in order to eliminate the ambiguity or inconsistencies. This is true for many definitions or ideas and is not reserved to religious questions. You will find that atheism has undergone drastic changes as it has become apparent that atheistic conceptions of the universe did not mesh with science. The same goes for redefining science as it became apparent that classical definitions did not agree with developments in quantum physics.

Point being, it is not that the definitions change because they wish to cover up inaccuracies. They change becuase it becomes apparent that past definitions were inaccurate or inadequate. The definition of omnipotence has changed because the idea has evolved, and the term has become more refined as philosophers recognized the absurdities that result with the idea of an all-powerful being that can cause contradictions (a further understanding of logic forced them to clarify the defintion). The main point is that changing the meaning of a term is not a bad thing. Just because a term had some meaning in the 6th century does not mean that defintion is the right definition. The definition could just be inaccurate or be in need of further clarification given recent developments (one scientific example being the evolution of the term "atom").

He did? Honestly, i didn`t see how he criticized about being or not. Are you talking about that part about the conception being through intercourse?
If it`s that, that`s not the part that offended, as i said that if he didn`t believe in one part, he surely woudn`t believe in the rest (God>Marie`s conception by the Holy spirit).
For Christians Mary is considered sacred as being born without sin and Holy for being the mother of Jesus and her chastity which is considered a virtue (living by the spirit and not by the flesh). So, if you read again what he said in the first place, you know that i was only refering to the insult.

There's nothing we can do to those who don't believe in God, because they ask for evidence. Faith has no proof or evidence.. I digress though, and I am for anything that helps improve a person's life.

1. "OK, so we've established that not being aware of God and Jesus won't send you to hell.  To go to hell wou have to "reject him whilst knowing him".  I'll come back to this.  By the way, does this mean they go to Heaven, or is there a third option"
I said that we have to look case by case and that we need to question why and - i add know; should have done this sooner - what it truly meant to said person to never met God.
I don´t know that! :D
Honestly, i don`t. Only God knows how he lived his life, so He will treat him accordingly. That`s the best i can say.
After thinking it`s probably not different than sinning without knowing, i guess.
Edit: Ok, i think i may have made a mistake somewhere along this conversation! :p
When Chirst said that we won`t get to God besides going through Him and that one who dies with Chirst, lives with Him forever, i kinda gave the impression that knowing of Him is separate of following Him, believing in Him and what He is. It`s all those notions.

You didn`t understand the message behind the leap of faith. The evidence is all arounds us, we just need to rise above doubts, incomprehensions and take the plunge! God knows perfectly well that we don`t have the power to see and feel as Him, nor does He asks to do so in that way.
The leap of faith is one has doubts - whatever they are -, have confidence in Him, trust Him and go for it.

"I don't think those miracles happened because of God.  I suspect that either they were strange or amazing coincidences, or hallucinations, or just didn't happen. "
This is a good example, if you allow me. There`s evidence in the world besides the Bible. You should ask yourself exactly why don`t you believe when you see actions connected to Him.
You asked for more convincing proof. There you have it.

2. I didn`t understood what you wrote, sorry!

No you are just plain wrong. Blind faith is believing in something even when there is evidence to the contrary. Overwhelming evidence. There is overwhelming evidence that Mary comitted adultery and lie to cover her ass, and zero that she was impreganeted by god. What you ave is pure blind faith, and blind faith in any context is idiotic exactly BECAUSE it evades any evidence. As I said, that is true for any blind faith, whatever it is in, even science.

I mean look at yourself, you can't even go one argument without using the crutch of blind faith. There is plenty you can go by in religion which doesn't have a huge amount of evidence against it. Use that, believe in that. Why do you have to believe in the stories which have as much evidence backing them as fairy tales? Some actually have evidence AGAINST them, as is the case with Mary. I am not insulting you, I am just laying down what evidence exists and how the world is, and how the world is does not  agree with your viewpoint, and somehow you take offense to it? I am sorry, but it honestly sounds like you need to find some other belief system, because the world sure as hell won't change just because your feelings are hurt by it.

ALso you are also wrong on how you describe love. Did you know that it has been shown that when two people break up, who love each other, the brain has the exact same activity as if the person is suffering from cocaine withdrawal? Did you also know that love gives you that love feeling is actualy dopamine? Do you realize is that the feeling of happiness is actually just a state of low -level, but consistent, pleasure? Don't bother wading into this argument, because I have plenty of evidence to back me up, and you have nothing. Just like the whole argument whether Mary slept around or not.

All the evidence you talk about is nothing more than what your senses give you. It`s you who neglects it`s own spiritual side.
You said she lied? Prove it without a doubt that she lied. As i said before, reason and science are constrained tools, they can`t aprehend everything. The zero evidence you are refering too is the part of the Bible that mentions and all the apparitions where that is shown, but since you couldn`t witness it, it`s just made up lies, right?
You know that aswell. There was life before reason and science. Don`t submit life to flawed tools that can`t by definition step out of their fields to see if there`s anything more.

The reason why i use faith so much it´s because it`s part of the religion/God context. More, it`s felt and lived, therefore proof - just not to reason and science.

You do have plently of evidence to show how the body interacts with the spirit. But if you only use science to undestand feelings, you`ll just explain the "how" and not the "why".

All that my senses tell me? This sounds vaguely familiar, I think I heard it in a 1999 movie, I wonder which one it was.... I also like how the bible covers its ass on blind faith. "Yeah, this is correct because...... we say it is correct."

Also the whole falt and lived part is absolutely bullshit. I want you to make a good argument, and I honestly mean good, as to why unicorns don't exist but your appartions do. What you say goes true for ANY belief.

Me? As I said earlier in the thread, I think there's a Cosmic Being, who one day went to the Cosmic Taco Bell after a Cosmic Party of absolutely ridiculous amount of Comsic Beer was consumed. As is the usual with Cosmic Taco Bell, he ended up on the toilet and by accident he shit out our universe. Just like you and me, he doesn't give a damn about what he shit out of himself, so he just flushed it down the toilet. That is what I see when I close my eyes, and what I feel with my spiritual self. Oh, my spiritual sense also says that the Comic Being says that your belief in your god is wrong beyond any reasonable doubt, and Mary is an adulterer and a cheater. It also says you should believe in that specific Cosmic Being.

There you go, you have just opened up my spiritual part, and now I have faith and belief too. My newfound spiritual/religious self also says you are wrong. What are you going to do now?

What is written are direct words from God, Jesus or, through God`s inspiration, the apostles words.

"Also the whole falt and lived part is absolutely bullshit. I want you to make a good argument, and I honestly mean good, as to why unicorns don't exist but your appartions do. What you say goes true for ANY belief."
It is? Can you back such a claim that what i told you is wrong? You just don`t want to believe it.
I never said they don`t exist. have no idea if they do. Why apparitions true? Because someone saw them.
You can use any argument that someone uses for their belief. So? Validity taken. What`s valid for one, is valid for two. Remains the truth - and that we will all find out one day.


"Me? As I said earlier in the thread, I think there's a Cosmic Being, who one day went to the Cosmic Taco Bell after a Cosmic Party of absolutely ridiculous amount of Comsic Beer was consumed. As is the usual with Cosmic Taco Bell, he ended up on the toilet and by accident he shit out our universe. Just like you and me, he doesn't give a damn about what he shit out of himself, so he just flushed it down the toilet. That is what I see when I close my eyes, and what I feel with my spiritual self. Oh, my spiritual sense also says that the Comic Being says that your belief in your god is wrong beyond any reasonable doubt, and Mary is an adulterer and a cheater. It also says you should believe in that specific Cosmic Being."
As before, we will see one day. That`s all i can say.

"There you go, you have just opened up my spiritual part, and now I have faith and belief too. My newfound spiritual/religious self also says you are wrong. What are you going to do now?"
Do you possess the ability to read people`s mind and hearts? I still stand by my point. I know what i feel.

And you don't see a problem with two contradicting beliefs, which have the exact same amount of validity (in this case, lack of any), being right?

I also didn't say Cosmic Being (let's call him CB for short) said that you don't feel anything. It just says that what you believe and feel isn't actually there, just made up, a fable, a story, and what you are feeling is just a twisted version of what actually happened.

Funny story by the way, you can influence people's emotions, feelings, and even implant memories so that a person swears by them in court. All that can be done with some very un-spiritual methods.