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HappySqurriel said:
ManusJustus said:

Privitzing everything is bad, really bad.  A simple economic understanding of private vs public goods is all that is needed to avoid market failure:

http://www.economist.com/research/economics/alphabetic.cfm?letter=P&CFID=169185808&CFTOKEN=13970679#publicgoods

Even though 'privitzing everything' is a bad idea for the future, in the short term a large profit is made from selling.  Fundamentally its the same mentality of other types of politician who run up debt, no conern for the future in favor of short term gratification.  For instance, the mayor of my town privitized the public water supply; it was sold for millions of dollars so it helped the books at the time, but now the city has lot a major source of revenue and water prices increased 50% in the first two years.

The core question is how much of what most governments produce are "public goods" and how much is "social engineering" or "bureaucratic busywork"? From what I have seen most of what the government provides today is "social engineering" or "bureaucratic busywork", and even the "public goods" they do actually deliver tend to be full of "social engineering" and "bureaucratic busywork" ...

Privatization (often) eliminates these wasteful and pointless activities, but it is not (necessarily) the only way to do so. If there was the political will to do so, you could probably achieve similar results while keeping services publicly delivered; but this would require significant reform to the electoral system to prevent gains from being erased the second someone else came to power.

Wasteful things like pensions it seems.  As it is now, the concept of retirement is going to get abolished, as it will be impossible for anyone to retire.  All you do is unleash the market and the fallout happens.



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richardhutnik said:

Wasteful things like pensions it seems.  As it is now, the concept of retirement is going to get abolished, as it will be impossible for anyone to retire.  All you do is unleash the market and the fallout happens.


Its going to get abolished due to the fact that the government cannot help anyone out via Social Security. When you have a system that forces people to put money in, magically creates interest, then gives the same monies to someone else, you do not have an effective system. That is why our pension program (SS) is imploding. It was built in such a way that it would eventually come time to pay the piper. In the mean time, its destroyed a lot of potential wealth by funneling taxpayer dollars into activities of the federal government which did not create funds for the retirees, but instead created more promises by the government that it could not keep.

Look at Norway's pension plan. They have a defined contribution system that earns 14% annually for its citizens. Comparatively, America earns 2.32% and even then, that 2.32% comes from buying up T-Bills which the government itself pays interest on.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

still think if they had a hot chick with fat titties as candidate she be president



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mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:

Wasteful things like pensions it seems.  As it is now, the concept of retirement is going to get abolished, as it will be impossible for anyone to retire.  All you do is unleash the market and the fallout happens.


Its going to get abolished due to the fact that the government cannot help anyone out via Social Security. When you have a system that forces people to put money in, magically creates interest, then gives the same monies to someone else, you do not have an effective system. That is why our pension program (SS) is imploding. It was built in such a way that it would eventually come time to pay the piper. In the mean time, its destroyed a lot of potential wealth by funneling taxpayer dollars into activities of the federal government which did not create funds for the retirees, but instead created more promises by the government that it could not keep.

Look at Norway's pension plan. They have a defined contribution system that earns 14% annually for its citizens. Comparatively, America earns 2.32% and even then, that 2.32% comes from buying up T-Bills which the government itself pays interest on.


@ bolded

OIL money & small population...they have one of the biggest capital reserve per capita in the world.



ImJustBayuum said:
mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:

Wasteful things like pensions it seems.  As it is now, the concept of retirement is going to get abolished, as it will be impossible for anyone to retire.  All you do is unleash the market and the fallout happens.


Its going to get abolished due to the fact that the government cannot help anyone out via Social Security. When you have a system that forces people to put money in, magically creates interest, then gives the same monies to someone else, you do not have an effective system. That is why our pension program (SS) is imploding. It was built in such a way that it would eventually come time to pay the piper. In the mean time, its destroyed a lot of potential wealth by funneling taxpayer dollars into activities of the federal government which did not create funds for the retirees, but instead created more promises by the government that it could not keep.

Look at Norway's pension plan. They have a defined contribution system that earns 14% annually for its citizens. Comparatively, America earns 2.32% and even then, that 2.32% comes from buying up T-Bills which the government itself pays interest on.


@ bolded

OIL money & small population...they have one of the biggest capital reserve per capita in the world.

Doesn't change the fact that we could get similar rates via defined benefit plans and investing in diversified funds. Most government employees have that kind of system. Both my wife and I were earning 7-10% APR under Ohio's public pension plan. Even if you couldn't get 14%, you could get half of that and still have an infinitely better system than Social Security.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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HappySqurriel said: 

While I wouldn't recommend it with the current state of laws within the United States, the judicial system could (theoretically) be privately run. When you think about it, all the judiciary is supposed to do is make judgements based on the legal framework that has been created by the legislative branch of the government, or precedence set by a higher court, so as long as the legislative branch and supreme court are managed in the best interests of citizens lower courts could be privatized. Unfortunately, when you have multi-thousand page laws  full of contradictory and poorly written rules it is unlikely that a private business would be able to consistently judge cases.

I could theoritically quit my job and support myself by peddling acorns on the street, but that would also be stupid.



ManusJustus said:
HappySqurriel said: 

While I wouldn't recommend it with the current state of laws within the United States, the judicial system could (theoretically) be privately run. When you think about it, all the judiciary is supposed to do is make judgements based on the legal framework that has been created by the legislative branch of the government, or precedence set by a higher court, so as long as the legislative branch and supreme court are managed in the best interests of citizens lower courts could be privatized. Unfortunately, when you have multi-thousand page laws  full of contradictory and poorly written rules it is unlikely that a private business would be able to consistently judge cases.

I could theoritically quit my job and peddle acorns on the streets, but that would also be a stupid.


Please explain why you think it would be stupid?

Certainly, there may be some issues with ensuring objectivity and neutrality but I don’t think they’re inherently worse than judges who are elected or appointed.



HappySqurriel said:
ManusJustus said:
HappySqurriel said: 

While I wouldn't recommend it with the current state of laws within the United States, the judicial system could (theoretically) be privately run. When you think about it, all the judiciary is supposed to do is make judgements based on the legal framework that has been created by the legislative branch of the government, or precedence set by a higher court, so as long as the legislative branch and supreme court are managed in the best interests of citizens lower courts could be privatized. Unfortunately, when you have multi-thousand page laws  full of contradictory and poorly written rules it is unlikely that a private business would be able to consistently judge cases.

I could theoritically quit my job and peddle acorns on the streets, but that would also be a stupid.


Please explain why you think it would be stupid?

Certainly, there may be some issues with ensuring objectivity and neutrality but I don’t think they’re inherently worse than judges who are elected or appointed.

Yeah, lets stop electing judges and let a private business whose only incentive is profit run the judicial system.  Why stop there, instead of electing politicians lets let a private business run Congress and the White House. 

Also, the next time I need to fill up my car I'll just piss in my gas tank.  Its cheaper, but the fuel gauge won't be on empty.



ManusJustus said:
HappySqurriel said:
ManusJustus said:
HappySqurriel said: 

While I wouldn't recommend it with the current state of laws within the United States, the judicial system could (theoretically) be privately run. When you think about it, all the judiciary is supposed to do is make judgements based on the legal framework that has been created by the legislative branch of the government, or precedence set by a higher court, so as long as the legislative branch and supreme court are managed in the best interests of citizens lower courts could be privatized. Unfortunately, when you have multi-thousand page laws  full of contradictory and poorly written rules it is unlikely that a private business would be able to consistently judge cases.

I could theoritically quit my job and peddle acorns on the streets, but that would also be a stupid.


Please explain why you think it would be stupid?

Certainly, there may be some issues with ensuring objectivity and neutrality but I don’t think they’re inherently worse than judges who are elected or appointed.

Yeah, lets stop electing judges and let a private business whose only incentive is profit run the judicial system.  Why stop there, instead of electing politicians lets let a private business run Congress and the White House. 

Also, the next time I need to fill up my car I'll just piss in my gas tank.  Its cheaper, but the fuel gauge won't be on empty.


So, your only objection with private management of lower courts is that it would be possible for a company to turn a profit? Do you also reject the concept of privately run grocery stores?



HappySqurriel said:

So, your only objection with private management of lower courts is that it would be possible for a company to turn a profit? Do you also reject the concept of privately run grocery stores?

People can choose if they want to shop at a grocery store.  If a store has high prices or sells me sour milk, I can bring my business to another private grocerty store.  Enough people 'vote' against giving that store their business, then that store is no longer in business.

Public goods don't work that way.  Thats why its important to vote for a judge or vote for a politician who appoints a judge.

Whatever system you support, you should strive for it to be the best.  You are taking one idea that works in one place and trying to apply it to everything else, but the problem is that even though a method can work great in one situation it can fail miserabley in another.  You're like a carpenter who thinks he only needs one tool to build a house; the hammer works great nailing the floor down, but good luck trying to cut that board in half.