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Forums - General Discussion - Hungary's New Constitution and the Return of Fascism

sapphi_snake said:
thranx said:


As opposed to huge governments that want to take as much money as they can so they dont have to work? At least with corporations I have some sort of choice that can lead to a better situation instead of the money pit known as the government.

The Governemnt (at least in theory) works for the people. Corporations work for themselves, and have their own interests at heart. You can directly affect Government through voting. There's nothign you can do regarding Corporations. You may think you have choice, but it's very easy for Corporations to make a deal amongst themselves to keep prices high, and quality low, as health care is a necessity. And I don't undertsand this "take as much money as they can so they don't have to work" thing.

When you elect your Governments... the civil servants stay the same. That is, whoever's running the healthcare system under party A will essentially be running it under party B. Not really a choice.

What's more, it's the civil servants who decide where the budget goes. It's no wonder that they are the highest paid, and when budget's get cut, they're the last to go. Typically, when the private sector has to make cuts, they try to do it in ways that will effect the end product as little as possible. When public services are forced to accept budget cuts... they do it in headline-grabbing ways, as to get their budget reinstated.

Governments may, in theory, work for the people. But they, themselves, are people and work in the same incentive-driven manner that all humans do.



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sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:


1) The Euro.

2) Conservatives view on Personal freedoms and speech.

3) Economic approahes to sexism and racism that prove ineffective.

4) Only child, meaning when my parents get old they'd have to move out to where i live.

5) Suck at learning foreign languages.

6) Most europeon countries are setting themseles up for huge trouble as they try and mimic the better run, smaller and all around workable small countries.  The larger a country is, the worse socialism seems to perform due to beuracracys way of growing to add costs with large numbers, rather then save costs like one would expect to be the case.

1. What's wrong with the Euro?

2. What? Europe is more liberal than the US. There are just limits to freedom of speech of course, which is only normal, else the result would be chaos. Don't see what other freedoms are restricted (and don't you say guns ).


The Euro doesn't work. That's what's wrong with it. Currencies are highly delicate and need to fit the curves of an economy very well, if it doesn't all sorts of trouble unfolds. For example, France and Germany are highly industrialised countries, and, as such lower interest rates are far less dangerous, and pose greater benefit to these economies. The Euro, since its inception, has had very low interest rates.

The economies of Ireland, Portugal, Greece, etc are not as developed, and the low interest rates led to an economic boom ("The Celtic Tiger")... and a subsequent bust which has now put them in the current situtation. Their economies are are not suited for low interest rates.

Simply put... the countries require VERY different currencies.

-----------------------

Sure, European countries may tend to be more "liberal" in some areas. But the USA is much more of a "make your own way" type place, in comparison to Europe's "get the Government involved" attitude. I think this is what Kasz meant by  point 2.



sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:


1) The Euro. 

2) Conservatives view on Personal freedoms and speech.

3) Economic approahes to sexism and racism that prove ineffective.

4) Only child, meaning when my parents get old they'd have to move out to where i live.

5) Suck at learning foreign languages.

6) Most europeon countries are setting themseles up for huge trouble as they try and mimic the better run, smaller and all around workable small countries.  The larger a country is, the worse socialism seems to perform due to beuracracys way of growing to add costs with large numbers, rather then save costs like one would expect to be the case.

1. What's wrong with the Euro?

2. What? Europe is more liberal than the US. There are just limits to freedom of speech of course, which is only normal, else the result would be chaos. Don't see what other freedoms are restricted (and don't you say guns ).

3. Extend this argument.

4. Why is that? Are they expecting to live with you when they're older?Soundsl ike a bad ideea.

5. I understand this argument.

6. This may be true, but I was suggesting you move to one of the Scandinavian countries, where socialism's working very well.

1) Having a currency that you don't completely control is a horrendus idea.

2) It isn't.  Look at the recent French law targetting muslims, swiss minaret ban and English Street cameras, France's ejection of the Roma,

A huge number of personal freedoms taken in the "Patriot Act" that many Americans are upset about are things already taken in many western europeon countries without any complaints.

Italy's constant reelection of a Sexist Prime Minister that nobody in Italy seems to like but keets getting reelected because of his power over the media.  Then there is of course, the above Germany stripping Irelands right to vote away!  Though granted it's an issue we're having with Michigan government but at least that's on the State level. 

Seemingly wide support of very rightwing anti immigration parties. (The US only has one anti-ILLEGAL immigration party.)

And if you think the Nordic countries have escaped this... I would suggest checking out the recent Finnish elections and the "True Fins" pulling in a strong 3rd place.

Or just recent trends in Norway as well.

 

The minute the US gets a healthcare plan you'll hear about the "shocking sudden left turn" the US has made.

 

3)  Everyone right down to sociologists and how it's taught treat sexism and racism as economic issues.  "When this is withheld it's sexism" even though sexism and racism begin far sooner then  this.  You can see it in the sexism and racism laws, and why some western euroepon countries are slowly going the USA type way. 

For example... it's often not seen as sexism if you hit on or tell crude jokes to people of the other sex underneath you, unless you explicitly insist it will involve your working enviroment, even though it's clearly causing a hostile enviroment and effecting performance and peoples opinions of you.

Often times it even looks only at negative outcomes, rather then denial of positive ones.  AKA being demoted or fired vs not promoted even if your stats are the best.

While even if you do have a case.... it's nearly impossible to win in court.  (Except the UK.)  Though the UK definition is

"Sexism is sexual discrimination – and discrimination can be direct or indirect. According to the Sex Discrimination Act, 1975, direct discrimination is shown if “a woman is treated less favourably on the grounds of her sex by a person, than he would treat a man”. Indirect discrimination to women is shown if a person “applies to her a provision, criteria or practices which he applies, or would apply to a man, but 1) which puts or would put women at a particular disadvantage when compared to men, 2) which puts her at that disadvantage and 3) which he can not show to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”."

Again ignroitng the whole problem of "Hostile work enviroment.

 

4) No, they'll be fine, but when they get older visiting them will be important, espiecally when they reach "retirement home" age.  Visits by friends and family are the best way to get retirement home care



SamuelRSmith said:

Sure, European countries may tend to be more "liberal" in some areas. But the USA is much more of a "make your own way" type place, in comparison to Europe's "get the Government involved" attitude. I think this is what Kasz meant by  point 2.

Well, the disadvantage of the US is that you may be left with groups that decide to "make others' way" (for example Prop 8 in California). In the US things like civil rights are still seen as something that should be voted by the majority, which is really not a right course of action.

Also, strict regulations are necessary in an economy, to keep corporations in check.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

@Kasz216:

2. - The French law has a security purpose. And I don't see a problem with cameras on the streets. The street is a public place. It's not as if you have a right to privacy there.

Regarding the Roma deportations, didn't they have illegal settlements, and didn't they lack identification?

As for Berlusconi, he's more a testament of hwat happens when politicians create their own publicity in the public sphere, and how society has reached a point where people are no longer able to think critically.

The Nordic countries' problems with immigrants, mainly muslim immigrants, is that they don't respect ther laws and culture. For example muslims think they have a right to not let their kids attend mandatory sex ed in schools. Obviously the immigrants don't do themselves any favours by not trying to adapt to the culture of their new country. Then there's also the crimes these individuals commit. I think immigration laws should be very strict, and people who don't adapt, don't get jobs, don't learn the language, commit crimes etc. should be deported.

3. - The problem is that the work environment is sadly still ignored, despite studies showing that it has a big impact on productivity and performance.

4. - Damn, retiremnt home, just the thought of such a place makes me nauseated. I hope I never ned to live in such a place. It's nice that you won't forget about them when they'll be old.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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sapphi_snake said:

@Kasz216:

2. - The French law has a security purpose. And I don't see a problem with cameras on the streets. The street is a public place. It's not as if you have a right to privacy there.

Regarding the Roma deportations, didn't they have illegal settlements, and didn't they lack identification?

As for Berlusconi, he's more a testament of hwat happens when politicians create their own publicity in the public sphere, and how society has reached a point where people are no longer able to think critically.

The Nordic countries' problems with immigrants, mainly muslim immigrants, is that they don't respect ther laws and culture. For example muslims think they have a right to not let their kids attend mandatory sex ed in schools. Obviously the immigrants don't do themselves any favours by not trying to adapt to the culture of their new country. Then there's also the crimes these individuals commit. I think immigration laws should be very strict, and people who don't adapt, don't get jobs, don't learn the language, commit crimes etc. should be deported.

3. - The problem is that the work environment is sadly still ignored, despite studies showing that it has a big impact on productivity and performance.

4. - Damn, retiremnt home, just the thought of such a place makes me nauseated. I hope I never ned to live in such a place. It's nice that you won't forget about them when they'll be old.


2. All i see is a lot of excuses for some seriously conservative ideals we wouldn't think of in the US.

4. Retirment homes aren't bad... well at least not in the US.  It's you either need to be able to speak up for yourself or have visitors because the aids don't always have as much time for everyone because of how some people are.

My grandma is in a nursing home right now and I think she's happier then she was when she wasn't.  Prepaired food, free laundry, plenty of people to meet, hang out with, scheduled events.

I'd live in one now if i could.

Most of the US ones are pretty good.  You've just got to watch out on the ones that are mostly or fully run by the government.

They're getting paid by the government so they often don't give a crap because people can't take their money elsewhere.  That's where you get things like neglect and abuse.



Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:

@Kasz216:

2. - The French law has a security purpose. And I don't see a problem with cameras on the streets. The street is a public place. It's not as if you have a right to privacy there.

Regarding the Roma deportations, didn't they have illegal settlements, and didn't they lack identification?

As for Berlusconi, he's more a testament of hwat happens when politicians create their own publicity in the public sphere, and how society has reached a point where people are no longer able to think critically.

The Nordic countries' problems with immigrants, mainly muslim immigrants, is that they don't respect ther laws and culture. For example muslims think they have a right to not let their kids attend mandatory sex ed in schools. Obviously the immigrants don't do themselves any favours by not trying to adapt to the culture of their new country. Then there's also the crimes these individuals commit. I think immigration laws should be very strict, and people who don't adapt, don't get jobs, don't learn the language, commit crimes etc. should be deported.

3. - The problem is that the work environment is sadly still ignored, despite studies showing that it has a big impact on productivity and performance.

4. - Damn, retiremnt home, just the thought of such a place makes me nauseated. I hope I never ned to live in such a place. It's nice that you won't forget about them when they'll be old.


2. All i see is a lot of excuses for some seriously conservative ideals we wouldn't think of in the US.

4. Retirment homes aren't bad... well at least not in the US.  It's you either need to be able to speak up for yourself or have visitors because the aids don't always have as much time for everyone because of how some people are.

My grandma is in a nursing home right now and I think she's happier then she was when she wasn't.  Prepaired food, free laundry, plenty of people to meet, hang out with, scheduled events.

I'd live in one now if i could.

Most of the US ones are pretty good.  You've just got to watch out on the ones that are mostly or fully run by the government.

They're getting paid by the government so they often don't give a crap because people can't take their money elsewhere.  That's where you get things like neglect and abuse.

2. - Those things are necessary for stability and securite (and ironically for maintaining liberal ideals in Scandinavia).

4. - My problem with such places is what they represent: you're old, you can no longer take care of yourself, you're no longer needed or useful, you have no one to take care of you and be there for you so you have to get stangers to do it. Quite frankly, suicide seems like a better option.

And LOL @ at wanting to go to such a place now gramps.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:

@Kasz216:

2. - The French law has a security purpose. And I don't see a problem with cameras on the streets. The street is a public place. It's not as if you have a right to privacy there.

Regarding the Roma deportations, didn't they have illegal settlements, and didn't they lack identification?

As for Berlusconi, he's more a testament of hwat happens when politicians create their own publicity in the public sphere, and how society has reached a point where people are no longer able to think critically.

The Nordic countries' problems with immigrants, mainly muslim immigrants, is that they don't respect ther laws and culture. For example muslims think they have a right to not let their kids attend mandatory sex ed in schools. Obviously the immigrants don't do themselves any favours by not trying to adapt to the culture of their new country. Then there's also the crimes these individuals commit. I think immigration laws should be very strict, and people who don't adapt, don't get jobs, don't learn the language, commit crimes etc. should be deported.

3. - The problem is that the work environment is sadly still ignored, despite studies showing that it has a big impact on productivity and performance.

4. - Damn, retiremnt home, just the thought of such a place makes me nauseated. I hope I never ned to live in such a place. It's nice that you won't forget about them when they'll be old.


2. All i see is a lot of excuses for some seriously conservative ideals we wouldn't think of in the US.

4. Retirment homes aren't bad... well at least not in the US.  It's you either need to be able to speak up for yourself or have visitors because the aids don't always have as much time for everyone because of how some people are.

My grandma is in a nursing home right now and I think she's happier then she was when she wasn't.  Prepaired food, free laundry, plenty of people to meet, hang out with, scheduled events.

I'd live in one now if i could.

Most of the US ones are pretty good.  You've just got to watch out on the ones that are mostly or fully run by the government.

They're getting paid by the government so they often don't give a crap because people can't take their money elsewhere.  That's where you get things like neglect and abuse.

2. - Those things are necessary for stability and securite (and ironically for maintaining liberal ideals in Scandinavia).

4. - My problem with such places is what they represent: you're old, you can no longer take care of yourself, you're no longer needed or useful, you have no one to take care of you and be there for you so you have to get stangers to do it. Quite frankly, suicide seems like a better option.

And LOL @ at wanting to go to such a place now gramps.


2.  That's what everybody says when they take away personal libreties.  It rarely actually is the case however.

4. What, it'd be like being rich.... well not quite but...



Kasz216 said:


2.  That's what everybody says when they take away personal libreties.  It rarely actually is the case however.

4. What, it'd be like being rich.... well not quite but...

2 - You've been reading too many dystopian novels.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:

@Kasz216:

2. - The French law has a security purpose. And I don't see a problem with cameras on the streets. The street is a public place. It's not as if you have a right to privacy there.

Regarding the Roma deportations, didn't they have illegal settlements, and didn't they lack identification?

As for Berlusconi, he's more a testament of hwat happens when politicians create their own publicity in the public sphere, and how society has reached a point where people are no longer able to think critically.

The Nordic countries' problems with immigrants, mainly muslim immigrants, is that they don't respect ther laws and culture. For example muslims think they have a right to not let their kids attend mandatory sex ed in schools. Obviously the immigrants don't do themselves any favours by not trying to adapt to the culture of their new country. Then there's also the crimes these individuals commit. I think immigration laws should be very strict, and people who don't adapt, don't get jobs, don't learn the language, commit crimes etc. should be deported.

3. - The problem is that the work environment is sadly still ignored, despite studies showing that it has a big impact on productivity and performance.

4. - Damn, retiremnt home, just the thought of such a place makes me nauseated. I hope I never ned to live in such a place. It's nice that you won't forget about them when they'll be old.


2. All i see is a lot of excuses for some seriously conservative ideals we wouldn't think of in the US.

4. Retirment homes aren't bad... well at least not in the US.  It's you either need to be able to speak up for yourself or have visitors because the aids don't always have as much time for everyone because of how some people are.

My grandma is in a nursing home right now and I think she's happier then she was when she wasn't.  Prepaired food, free laundry, plenty of people to meet, hang out with, scheduled events.

I'd live in one now if i could.

Most of the US ones are pretty good.  You've just got to watch out on the ones that are mostly or fully run by the government.

They're getting paid by the government so they often don't give a crap because people can't take their money elsewhere.  That's where you get things like neglect and abuse.

4. - My problem with such places is what they represent: you're old, you can no longer take care of yourself, you're no longer needed or useful, you have no one to take care of you and be there for you so you have to get stangers to do it. Quite frankly, suicide seems like a better option.

 

But you want the government to dictate your life until then? Isn't that the same thing?