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Forums - General - So, the French law opposing ninjas goes into effect.

Mr Khan on 12 April 2011
richardhutnik said:
badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

I notice that, from time to time, where information is missing, individuals will fill in presumptive gaps using stereotypical thinking based upon a presumed group those individuals believe someone they are thinking about holds.  What I have repeatedly stated was that, in the case of where things go wrong for an individual, either through bad luck, or the fact the person made bad decisions, is that if there isn't a means by which the person has a hope of recovering and turning it around, society won't function right.  The responsibilities go for individuals to others in the same society they are in, to offer a hand up.  Without this degree of security, then people become very self-absorbed, and even the most basic of support is missing, where such individuals can act as Scrooge and say that they help, because they pay taxes.  Of course, such individuals will also likely complain their taxes are too high, and want them reduced.  And, heck, if you died destitute in the street, well, what do you expect?  You were a loser after all, and flushing of losers is the way society can better itself.  And I can argue this is basics of the Christian religion, that if I care to even remotely associate with, I need to bow my head to and acknowledge.  Well, if it isn't for society as a whole, it is at least a mission of the church. 

In what I wrote above, what you may of read from me is that if society doesn't do this, government will find itself increasingly doing, as it feels it needs to prevent society from falling apart.  So, the state of forcing people into compliance will end up following.  In no way do I approve of this at all, but acknowledge it can happen.

Your exact words were "[...] Libertarians put the cart before the horse.  You get more freedom when people take responsibility."  Do you believe that only applies to economics, as in the original argument, and not to social matters like this? It seems a peculiar place to draw the line, especially in this case when many Muslim immigrants subsist on welfare in large part because they won't assimilate.

And go with what I said.  I said that you will get more freedom when individuals in a society take more responsibility.  You don't create more responsibility by granting more freedom.  Society doesn't magically become better just because more freedom is given. As I said, Libertarians put the cart before the horse here.  It refers to all areas actually.  Take the case of freedom in the Mideast.  In cases where the citizens did uprising from the ground up and took ownership, transition was much more stable and worked.  Now, contrast what happened in Iraq.  It was a Liberation applied by outside force overthrowing Saddam.  The end result of the liberation in Iraq, as opposed to Egypt, was chaos in the street and YEARS of civil unrest, and a number of American deaths and billions spent.  Going, "BLAM YOU ARE FREE" without the foundation in society to handle it, is merely chaos waiting to unfold.

On this note, the conservative side is more accurate here in regards to the nature of reality.  That is why conservatives will fight a battle to preserve certain values.  Of course, WHAT those values are does matter.

Iraq's case was unique where they tore down all existing social structures (as part of the purge of the Baath party from public life, but you had to be in the Baath party to be anyone of consequence). You can bust a totalitarian regime from the top without having to tear through social structures, and that's largely what happened in Egypt, though support came from the bottom, things are 80% the same as they were before, the large difference being the absence of Mubarak, but the government wasn't decimated in place.

Revolution is a tricky thing, you either have to work with the old regime, or be prepared to either totally replace it or face anarchy



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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FaRmLaNd on 12 April 2011
The Fury said:
FaRmLaNd said:

Not a fan. If a man is so fundamentalist that he'd force his wife to wear the Burqa then he'd most likely not let the woman out of the house if she can't wear it.

Furthermore there certainly may be some women that would choose the wear it, who can't now. 

Plus if a woman really is being forced to wear it, punishing her with a fine doesn't make any sense. Find the people that are forcing them into it and prosecute them, but don't target the victims with fines. This just seems like a law that blames the victims.

As an atheist I certainly am not a fan of islam or any other religion, but freedom of religion is certainly something I support.

Part of the law states that if a man is found guilty of forcing someone to wear one the man will goto jail.

I have no issue with that part of the law.



richardhutnik on 12 April 2011
Mr Khan said:

Iraq's case was unique where they tore down all existing social structures (as part of the purge of the Baath party from public life, but you had to be in the Baath party to be anyone of consequence). You can bust a totalitarian regime from the top without having to tear through social structures, and that's largely what happened in Egypt, though support came from the bottom, things are 80% the same as they were before, the large difference being the absence of Mubarak, but the government wasn't decimated in place.

Revolution is a tricky thing, you either have to work with the old regime, or be prepared to either totally replace it or face anarchy

What happens in a viable revolution, with sufficient numbers working together to oppose the standing dictator, is that, when they get in power, they have a framework to end up governing.  This happened in the United States, when it rebelled against Britain.  It even withstood a constitutional crisis early.  The citizens were ready to govern and run things.  In a dictatorship, the dictator can end up undermining things so much, that it is hard for them to work together.  Or, usually a dictator will arise when a nation is not able to govern itself locally, and breaks down into factional infighting, which is definitely the hallmark of Iraq, and even Afghanistan to some degree. 

On the point I ended up alluding to in another thread, if the citizens are not able to govern themselves, and deal with their own problems and produce a large number of negative externalities (polution, crime, disease, poverty), then the citizens will end up demanding something of government, and thus you end up with government intervening.  So, on this end, I had addressed the Libertarians who go, "Just get rid of government and things will be fine".  Well, nope, not really.  People need to take charge first, then you can eliminate government.



Lostplanet22 on 13 April 2011
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:

Or to further elaborate.   Time and time again has shown that economic issues without changing the social issues leads to a huge backlash and possible eventual regression, making such efforts a failed effort.

Turkey actually being a great example.

Afterall the elected officials are doing everything they can now to repeal the burqa ban, but are being stopped by unelected officials.

How much did it really change opinions in turkey?

Yes thx to erdogan who believes that the seperation of church and state is wrong...His views about the Islam are that fundamental that he gets the support of muslims who are against the believe that women and men are equal.... And who is supporting this man?  Yes the USA..



TURKEY: Murders of Muslim women up 1400% since Erdogan took office
Posted: February 27, 2011 | Author: barenakedislam | Filed under: EnemyWithin-foreign | 24 Comments »
Significant women’s rights legislation has been passed in Turkey in recent years, but now that a radical Islamist is in charge, those rights are ignored and (‘honor’) abuse/killings of women by Muslim men is on the rise.


The Balance of power between the forces of radical Islam and Western democracy underwent a monumental sea change recently when 58% of the voters in Turkey approved of a referendum that will bolster the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) and serve to transform the once secular nation into an Islamic republic.

This is bad news for the secularists since Erdogan in the past has attempted to dissolve all distinction between mosque and state. He instituted legislation that would make adultery a criminal offense and attempted to lift the ban on women wearing head coverings and burqas in the public universities. “This is a radical decision point for the future of Turkey,” said lawyer Baris Aslan. “This is the spot between the religious and the secular, between despotism or democracy.

Despite the fact that Turkey under the AKP strengthened its bonds to Iran and Syria and severed its ties to Israel, President Barack Obama has been supportive of the Erdogan regime, lauding what he called Turkey’s thriving democracy.

I don't see your point.

 

Outside dodging the fact that i'm right by trying to get me to bite on the bait that the US is supporting them.

My point:  Their is a good reason why the unelected officials are trying to stop it;..  The ones who are elected have an radical view about the Islam and with Erdogan who has been in jail for hate speech and have worrying ideas about the Islam and the rest of the non-muslim world..  If you then use those kind of people to show me that people wants to end the burqa ban then you are not helping the idea that an non- burqa ban is a good thing...in contrary..

And their is no bait here atleast I was not trying to let you bite,  my point is that USA (the government) supporting a person like him is rather a mistake than a good thing but if you did some research you would find that their are enough persons in the USA who are worried about witch way Turkey is following with Erdogan and his supporters..





 

ImJustBayuum on 13 April 2011

how did a thread about france banning the face veil ended up a thread about revolutions, turkeys future direction and dictatorship in the Middle East.

I support the ban. A burqa is not modesty (as require by the qu'ran) its fucken extreme.



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Lostplanet22 on 13 April 2011
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:

I've said it once, and i'll say it again.

All the Burqa Ban does is hide the underlying issues so the French can feel good about themselves.

Which is generally the French's approach to sexism and racism.  Close your eyes and pretend everythings cool.


All this will do, is prevent women who were forced to where the Burqa from leaving their homes.  A real improvement.

While preventing those who wanted to wear it, to wear it.

 

Meanwhile, now those women who were going out into the world, are shut off more, and isolated more from society making it harder for them to break away.

Or, for the few who are treated in such a way and are let out... there is now no sign that they are beign mistreated.

 

Of course, there will be women forced to wear it anyway, and well, they'll be punished by the police, which is great... because that's what you want in society.  Laws that punish the victim.

Yes and like the law stated the husband can get a huge fine for it and probably other measures..

Try to answer this how come Turkey who banned the Burqa is one of the best muslim countries to live in for muslim women?  Coincidence?  If it wasn't for Erdogan the future for the Turkish women would be great.

It depends on if you consider correlation coincidence.

Enforce a Burqa ban in Saudi Arabia, and the women will be treated no better.  It's just Saudi Arabia wouldn't consider such a ban.

That's like asking if it's a coincidence that more resturants serve pork in turkey then everywhere else, and women's treatment is better.

Not really, women in Burqa or who wear a headscarf never have been treated equal to men, people
always belief this is because it happens in (former) christian countries where people are biased against the muslim community but even in muslim countries the same problem occurs.  Ataturk's idea was that when you ban the burqa and even ban the abilty to veil yourself when working for state/public sector would increase the rights of the women in the long end and you can only have a good society where women and men are treated equal...  Yes the first years were hard and their were women who could not leave their house;.But in the end more women won their freedom and I recommend you to visit one of the bigger city's in the west of Turkey and have a talk about it, plenty of them will say that they can only live this free thx to the ban..

When a idiot says their doesn't exist an muslim country with a good society he will get the answer that he should look up the country called Turkey...Now the same people who gave that answer should look up why this is possible..

Er?  No?  Again, your confusing correlation with causation.  You are talking about a concentrated effort to help women's rights, and then a law done in that claim, that probably had negative effects.

It's not the first time a law meant to enforce rights led too the opposite happening.

For example, france's "Colour blind" policy.  All that has done is allow racism to grow and descrimination to grow, without any official government official judging it.

Point out that a racial divide is growing, and they call you a racist.

Let me say it this way how come that their are Muslim women agreeing with the ban?  Infact how come Muslim women openly demanding for a Burqa ban?  Is this maybe because they live in the Muslim societies in France and see that the fundamental ideas like 'women are not equal to men' are becoming more popular and hope this ban could help to demotivate those men who see women not as equal to men?  The law helped to demotivate the men in Turkey why should it not help in France?

France already admitted that Colour Blind Policy is not working but at the same time leaders of others countries like UK/Germany also admitted that their policy is also not working..

Why are there people against the ban too?

1)It ddn't help demotivate the men of Turkey.  You just want to read into it that they did.

2)And your avoidence of the other post, generally proves that point.

3)Though yeah, the UK and German plans aren't working either, that's why there has been an increased effort to adopt US thinking in the fields of sexism and racism.

The basic fundamentals and understandings of sexism and racism are somewhat primitive in europe.  There is like a breakdown in the very construct of sexism.  Treating it as an economic construct rather then a sociological one.

 

Economic solutions will not fix an issue of society.

Because it are mostly people who can not accept that someone doesn't like something from an other race/religion?  If I say that I don't like the muslim culture their will be a bunch of people who will call me a racist even if their are muslims saying it....


Not of all of them ofcourse some just want equality and mean it good like you.



And I would appreciate if you answered my questions why their are muslim women demanding for an burqa ban..

1) It is true that I cant' prove it but can you prove that it didn't demotivate those men?

2) I was not avoiding but typing an answer to the other post it just took a while before I could answer it.

3) I can not agree with this one, all EU coutries have different approach still all of them with an 4-10% muslim community are having the same problem...Going from France to the north of Europe like Sweden..


1) You mean, outside the fact that the Burqa ban is getting put back in place and that it's being used as a rallying cry for groups like the AKP?   That already was the proof.  Even if all the women were let out of the house without it.  They are no more likely to get help then they were before.  In fact that are far less likely to get help... because now they can't be targeted by orginzations.  Instead of targeting women in a Burka, a red flag that may suggest someone is being abused they now focus on.... what?

It's like if you said "We've got a neo nazi problem.  We will solve it by making it illegal to wear a swastika!".

It's a naive and pointless gesture.

2) Great.  Though in that post you still avoided the question.

3) Once again, that's because all Euroepon countries share a europeon economic view of sexism and racism, when sexism and racism is a culturally issue that needs to be solved culturally.

1) See my post above what I think about the AK party and their rallying cry, If those women may go out without one then the ban was rather a succes. If you want help from an organization you have to go them or let them know email/phone call it is not like the organization is walking on the street and asking wome in Burqa that they need help..

2)  Ok I am totally consused now;..What question exactly are you talking about?

3) Alright is it then possible to enlighten me and use maybe an example of what the UK/Swede/Denmark/Netherlands etc did wrong compared to what USA did?  Yes because I fail to see what makes USA approach better than any of those countries..

But at the same time the problems in those EU countries are getting visibile in the USA aswell, it are small things, maybe for you things only haters and idiots would worry about..I remember that one the first things I saw when I was in NY was the show called South Park.. ' I only saw a few of them at that time and one of them was about 'Chinese'  How bad they are, mudererers...and their was even a dialogue between the Chef and (Stan?) that wen like this.....Chef: All Chinese are bad...Stan:  What about Lee,  Chef: Oh Lee is not Chinese, he is an American Chinese...he is good....I remember that it shocked me and even enraged me...  But after seeing more episodes I found out that they made fun and criticized The French, The British, The Germans, The Jews etc...And the freedom to do this kind of thing makes the USA great....But last year...  I must say I was shocked to see that they censored Mohammed...Even going that far that the creators were getting Death Treats..  Censoring Mohammed is maybe a veyr small step for you;.but is a step in the wrong direction....A mistake that they also made in Europe...Is censoring Mohammed a Cultural solition to an cultural issue doing right?



 

richardhutnik on 13 April 2011
ImJustBayuum said:

how did a thread about france banning the face veil ended up a thread about revolutions, turkeys future direction and dictatorship in the Middle East.

I support the ban. A burqa is not modesty (as require by the qu'ran) its fucken extreme.

By means of mental associations, one thing lead to another.  I personally don't support the burqa, but I am more opposed to government acting in this manner, and also support people being able to be anonymous in public.  Then again, this comes from an American perspective, which has a constitution insuring freedoms. 

The freedom of expression is extreme.  I once saw a guy who had cosmetic surgery (I assume he wasn't born that way) to make himself look like a devil.  That is extreme to me.  Why would I end up supporting this?



Kantor on 13 April 2011
Lostplanet22 said:
dsister said:

Haven't a couple of middle eastern countries banned them too?


Tunesia and Turkey;..  The last one thanks to Ataturk..

Turkey is only in government buildings, schools and universities. That goes for all religious symbols, as it does in France.

This law is new because it bans the burqa (or any garment covering the face and not required for safety, so yes, ninjas) on the street as well. France is the first country to do this.

According to Wikipedia, only 11% of women in Istanbul wear it, but I just came back from there, and it was significantly more.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

Kasz216 on 13 April 2011
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Kasz216 said:

Or to further elaborate.   Time and time again has shown that economic issues without changing the social issues leads to a huge backlash and possible eventual regression, making such efforts a failed effort.

Turkey actually being a great example.

Afterall the elected officials are doing everything they can now to repeal the burqa ban, but are being stopped by unelected officials.

How much did it really change opinions in turkey?

Yes thx to erdogan who believes that the seperation of church and state is wrong...His views about the Islam are that fundamental that he gets the support of muslims who are against the believe that women and men are equal.... And who is supporting this man?  Yes the USA..



TURKEY: Murders of Muslim women up 1400% since Erdogan took office
Posted: February 27, 2011 | Author: barenakedislam | Filed under: EnemyWithin-foreign | 24 Comments »
Significant women’s rights legislation has been passed in Turkey in recent years, but now that a radical Islamist is in charge, those rights are ignored and (‘honor’) abuse/killings of women by Muslim men is on the rise.


The Balance of power between the forces of radical Islam and Western democracy underwent a monumental sea change recently when 58% of the voters in Turkey approved of a referendum that will bolster the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) and serve to transform the once secular nation into an Islamic republic.

This is bad news for the secularists since Erdogan in the past has attempted to dissolve all distinction between mosque and state. He instituted legislation that would make adultery a criminal offense and attempted to lift the ban on women wearing head coverings and burqas in the public universities. “This is a radical decision point for the future of Turkey,” said lawyer Baris Aslan. “This is the spot between the religious and the secular, between despotism or democracy.

Despite the fact that Turkey under the AKP strengthened its bonds to Iran and Syria and severed its ties to Israel, President Barack Obama has been supportive of the Erdogan regime, lauding what he called Turkey’s thriving democracy.

I don't see your point.

 

Outside dodging the fact that i'm right by trying to get me to bite on the bait that the US is supporting them.

My point:  Their is a good reason why the unelected officials are trying to stop it;..  The ones who are elected have an radical view about the Islam and with Erdogan who has been in jail for hate speech and have worrying ideas about the Islam and the rest of the non-muslim world..  If you then use those kind of people to show me that people wants to end the burqa ban then you are not helping the idea that an non- burqa ban is a good thing...in contrary..

And their is no bait here atleast I was not trying to let you bite,  my point is that USA (the government) supporting a person like him is rather a mistake than a good thing but if you did some research you would find that their are enough persons in the USA who are worried about witch way Turkey is following with Erdogan and his supporters..

Oh, i'd agree it's a mistake, that's why it's a faulty bait.  We shouldn't be supporting unelected officials attempts at stifling democracy either however.

Your point is erronious however.

Afterall he was elected.

These extremists were elected, after the burqa ban which was supposed to demorilize people.

Did it demoralize them?  Or did it charge them up to the point of where they were able to elect an extremist?

If it really demoralized them, the people wouldn't be seeking the removal of the ban.

The ban is already being slowly decriminalize.  How long do you think the minoirty of the unelected courts could hold out, and how long could they hold out in france once it becomes mostly muslim?

All it does is keep the idea out of mind until it becomes too big and issue.



Lostplanet22 on 13 April 2011
Kantor said:
Lostplanet22 said:
dsister said:

Haven't a couple of middle eastern countries banned them too?


Tunesia and Turkey;..  The last one thanks to Ataturk..

Turkey is only in government buildings, schools and universities. That goes for all religious symbols, as it does in France.

This law is new because it bans the burqa (or any garment covering the face and not required for safety, so yes, ninjas) on the street as well. France is the first country to do this.

According to Wikipedia, only 11% of women in Istanbul wear it, but I just came back from there, and it was significantly more.

The burqa^o_o?  Or you mean headscarf? And I guess the later one?  Considering I hardly saw any of them wearing one in Turkey (If I may guesstimate 1-3%) and that were mostly elders.. Then again I was not in Istanbul but other regions like Bodrum..