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Forums - Nintendo - Wii software drought. Perfect time to open software studio's

Galaki said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:

At this time, Nintendo is virtually half the market just themselves


What's wrong with that? What you're saying is, Nintendo should go out of their way to beg 3rd parties to eat some of their pie?

I don't think Nintendo hate money that much.

Calm down man.  You'regoing far off my original topic and putting words in my mouth.

And on that topic you just brought up, I firmly believe that Nintendo won't be able to duplicate their success for a second generation.  Sure, they were able to take 50% or more of the market this gen.  But that doesn't mean they'll be able to just ride this wave and make millions on their first party forever.  Nintendo lost its dominance after the SNES when third parties jumped ship to Playstation.  The N64 was Nintendos last first party focused system and it didn't end well.  The same could easily happen next gen if they continue to ignore third parties.  And Nintendo knows this.  Why do you think they made the GC and Wii, focusing heavily on third parties?

Albion said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
Galaki said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:

Nintendo is stuck in a hole.  They can continue to dominate the market with just the profits from their first party line up.  But they'll never have the full market penetration of a PS2 or SNES if they don't appeal to third parties.  This is why I think they'll be releasing a more graphics focused console (like the GameCube) in 2012.


So, you want Nintendo to do what they did with GC and fail again? WTF

The difference is, Nintendo made the GameCube to specifically try to appeal to third parties, at a time when the N64 had already pushed them away and the PS2 was destined to get 95% of al third party support.

At this time, Nintendo is virtually half the market just themselves and the Wii was by far the most successful system, even without third parties.  If they chose this time to actually appeal to this parties and make a graphically powerful system, it would work.  Unlike on the GameCube.


3rd party will do the same to Nintendo even now with a next gen consule even if they come out with the most powerfull platform ever.  going after 3rd party is the mistake its already done and may be doing again.

Nintendo needs to expand 1st party software capacity.   Its the Company's strenght and its there bigest advantage over the 2 others.

If they want to Win this 3 way War. they need to double there 1st party output. maybe even more.

Id floore a good part of the nintendo money into opening new studio's and expanding the ones already in place, and Id continue until, I could produce 1 Qualaty game per every month there is in a year.

Game over

 

 

Nintendo has already more than doubled its first party output this gen.  More first and second party games have been made for the Wii than any other Nintendo system.  But that doesn't mean the SALES will continue.  As I brought up above, the next Nintendo system could end up being another N64 if they just try to go with 'what works' and ignore third parties.

Sure, Nintendo will make money.  But it doesn't mean they will make as much or be the dominating force in gaming.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

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gumby_trucker said:
oniyide said:

^^^ you said it yourself, 9 times out of ten, they will fail, why would publishers and devs risk that especially when things are getting expensive??? Who the hell has the balls to take that risk??? We can sit here and deride them all we want but we're not in their shoes, its easier to play it safe for fear of failure, most of us would do the same, im not condoning it, but it is what is is. And lets not just pick on Epic they all do. Some of your fav games is just a rehash of old, 2d Mario #6, 3D mario # 4, Sonic # whatever, Halo Breach, Killzone, Uncharted, Godz of War, Super Street Fighter Alpha Max Plus 3, you get the point

1. Which is exactly the reason why it shouldn't be getting this expensive! Imagine if instead of making one or two HD games with OMG graphics, the same amount of money would be used to make ten ps2 level games with radical, unique concepts. Out of those ten, one or two will offer something that consumers fall in love with and may even make enough money to cover the losses for the others. In addition, once you've captured that "magic new thing" you can upscale it and release a bigger budget HD port or sequel with significantly less risk since there is already a market for it. This blockbuster will surely make you a nice profit, devs wouldn't be making big HD games to begin with if they believed otherwise...

(This is in fact done behind the scenes during game development, but I don't think nearly enough resources are put behind "gameplay R&D" of this type in most companies. Those that do put significant effort behind it are famous for doing so  - Blizzard, Valve, Nintendo etc.)

2. None of those are my favorites, you can view my game collection to see a partial list. Also, I'm not saying there isn't room for iteration when exploring game concepts. But eventually you exhaust your possibility space, and if you don't break out in a new direction before that point than you are effectively stifling creativity.

Let me ask you - have you thought about this?

Do you think that space in magazines will get cheaper magically because you are making game with PS2 class tech instead of PS3 ? Or will you get TV discount for advertising smaller game ?

Just because you can make game for 10 milions less doesn't mean much when the cost split is 20 milions development and 50 milions advertising.



PROUD MEMBER OF THE PSP RPG FAN CLUB

Yakuzaice said:

1) It's not like the graphics race is new to this generation.  If anything now is the easiest time for people to take risks on creative games.  Development was much cheaper 20-30 years ago, but you also had to manufacture expensive cartridges and be able to distribute them across the world.  Between platforms like Steam, the app store, PSN/XBLA, XLIG, and even your own site, pretty much anyone who has an interest is able to make and distribute their own game.

2) Also Tetris is an odd thing to mention, considering the complete mess of its licensing in the 80's.  There were companies that didn't even have the rights to Tetris licensing it to others who then sub-licensed it to even more companies.  Plus the actual creator didn't profit off the game for more than a decade.

3) Speaking of Pac-man as well, the 2600 version was criticized for having much worse visuals (among other reasons) than the arcade version.  It's failure was a pretty big factor in both the destruction of Atari and the video game market overall.

4) Also Epic's suggestion to add more RAM was great.  256MB of RAM would have been a major bottleneck.  Hell, 512 isn't all that great either.

5) I have to wonder, did you feel the same way with every new generation?  What makes the current predicament any different from Blast Processing, or 3D graphics, or FMVs?

1) Indeed some things over the years have gotten better. It's not like everything in the industry is going backwards. Digital distribution, better development tools, more platforms available and so on are examples of this. But alot of the progress made in one area is offset by "dead weight" being added to another... To me it seems that far too often companies aren't honestly interested in pushing games forward by solving actual problems with the medium and would much rather pile on additional problems for no apparent reason. You know what I'd love to see from a middleware developer? How about figuring out how to have ubiquitous cameras that work like they should, or how about setting a hard standard in image quality? (take a look at Wii games running on Dolphin emulator to see what a huge difference that makes, much more than more polygons and shaders IMO). Hell, dare I say how about investing in tools that research into the concept of "what makes a design fun to begin with?"...

Now don't get me wrong, I think some of the stuff Epic has done as far as tools are concerned is fantastic! and will only improve (UDK, mod support, etc.) But the range of games these tools are being used for at the end of the day is far narrower than I think is healthy, not to mention there's a lot you can't do easily with Unreal tech too. As far as what I think about Epic's games, that's my own opinion, and doesn't matter much anyway - like I said, I don't object to their existence, just to their level of dominance.

2) I didn't mention Tetris as an example of good licensing or good publishing. The business history around that game is indeed long, convoluted, and at times tragic. But all that has nothing to do with the fact it was a brilliant original design that has held up wonderfully for decades! It's more of an actual game in the abstract sense than a lot of other games being released this gen who still wish they were interactive action movies and nothing else. The industry is far too obsessed in pushing games in a pipe-dream direction they want them to go (and won't be able to in the foreseeable future) than actually exploring what is possible in the present! The fact that Gears is at the end of the day a very pretty version of Doom goes a long way towards showing how far we've come in the gameplay department in the last 20 years.

3) Obviously, it is still possible to make games with bad graphics on low end hardware, be it because they lack style or do not match up well with the game's design and ideas. Just because you can always mess something up doesn't mean there isn't a better way of doing it.

4) Again, this depends on what you want to achieve. If you think higher resolution textures are what games are essentially about, than by all means invest hundreds of millions into that area. I for one think there are better ways to spend that money. How about hiring decent story writers for all of your game studios? How about collecting visual data from Kinect to try and pin-point during what moments of a game players are enjoying themselves the most, and then analyzing that data in order to make games more fun?

5) I have felt this way for roughly ten years now, ever since I realized the number of gaming genres was diminishing while games were getting more expensive and more about eye-candy than brain-candy. Personally I was quite happy with the likes of NOLF2 (2002) from a visual point of view. Others may have differing opinions on this obviously. But the point is we are in a race to pile on expensive features that in the end of the day offer little to games as a medium, and are sucking publishers dry! How would you feel if the film industry were investing heavily in tastier beverages and better candy to snack on while you're at the cinema!? Sure, you'd have a better time at first, but pretty quickly you'd start to think: "Is this why I go to the movies in the first place?... If I care so much about the snacks wouldn't I rather spend my money at the ice-cream parlor?" If the answer is yes, then you're in luck! Go to the ice-cream parlor! I can assure you their candy is tastier and less expensive. If the answer is no, you're essentially stuck...

Bottom line: I am in no way against evolving hardware and improving tech, but doing so in such a one-sided manner and at such a ridiculous pace only guarantees that most developers get left behind, and with them most ideas too.



Until you've played it, every game is a system seller!

the original trolls

Wii FC: 4810 9420 3131 7558
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mini-games on consoles, cinematic games on handhelds, what's next? GameBoy IMAX?

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Faxanadu said:
Mr Khan said:

Not like Wii owners would buy anything they'd have to sell anyway. Nintendo games only sell on Nintendo systems, after al


That is because Nintendo does not publish on other systems.

Ha! Epic Fail! love it!



Until you've played it, every game is a system seller!

the original trolls

Wii FC: 4810 9420 3131 7558
MHTri: name=BOo BoO/ID=BZBLEX/region=US

mini-games on consoles, cinematic games on handhelds, what's next? GameBoy IMAX?

Official Member of the Pikmin Fan Club

Zlejedi said:

Let me ask you - have you thought about this?

Do you think that space in magazines will get cheaper magically because you are making game with PS2 class tech instead of PS3 ? Or will you get TV discount for advertising smaller game ?

Just because you can make game for 10 milions less doesn't mean much when the cost split is 20 milions development and 50 milions advertising.

1) Luckily for us we have wonderful inventions like the Internet and steam that are eliminating the problem of limited magazine space or broadcasting time-slots. In the age of the Internet the bottleneck has now moved to transparency of these huge amounts of information. Which leads me to:

2) Transparency is indeed a real issue, not only faced by games might I add. This is exactly the kind of thing platform holders and big publishers should be investing their money in! This is something that directly leads to more happy customers, which leads to more happy developers, which grows the industry!

A good example of this is Apple, actually. I don't have an iphone, but I remember last year during one of their keynotes they introduced a new feature of iOS called "iAdds" that essentially gave you a playable demo of an app on the side instead of an annoying flash banner when you browse the web. You could instantly try it out, in real time, and these adds could be context sensitive and dynamic just like google addwords are today. I don't know if they came through on that, but it seemed to me to be a big step in the right direction. Hopefully they aren't charging an arm and a leg for it...



Until you've played it, every game is a system seller!

the original trolls

Wii FC: 4810 9420 3131 7558
MHTri: name=BOo BoO/ID=BZBLEX/region=US

mini-games on consoles, cinematic games on handhelds, what's next? GameBoy IMAX?

Official Member of the Pikmin Fan Club

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gumby_trucker said:
Zlejedi said:

Let me ask you - have you thought about this?

Do you think that space in magazines will get cheaper magically because you are making game with PS2 class tech instead of PS3 ? Or will you get TV discount for advertising smaller game ?

Just because you can make game for 10 milions less doesn't mean much when the cost split is 20 milions development and 50 milions advertising.

1) Luckily for us we have wonderful inventions like the Internet and steam that are eliminating the problem of limited magazine space or broadcasting time-slots. In the age of the Internet the bottleneck has now moved to transparency of these huge amounts of information. Which leads me to:

2) Transparency is indeed a real issue, not only faced by games might I add. This is exactly the kind of thing platform holders and big publishers should be investing their money in! This is something that directly leads to more happy customers, which leads to more happy developers, which grows the industry!

A good example of this is Apple, actually. I don't have an iphone, but I remember last year during one of their keynotes they introduced a new feature of iOS called "iAdds" that essentially gave you a playable demo of an app on the side instead of an annoying flash banner when you browse the web. You could instantly try it out, in real time, and these adds could be context sensitive and dynamic just like google addwords are today. I don't know if they came through on that, but it seemed to me to be a big step in the right direction.

Ad1. I was talking about magazines as a journals or newspapers not storage space - perhaps I should have used diffrent word. 

But my main point was that development costs are only a part of equation and sometimes marketing costs can be several points higher than AAA game development.



PROUD MEMBER OF THE PSP RPG FAN CLUB

Zlejedi said:

Ad1. I was talking about magazines as a journals or newspapers not storage space - perhaps I should have used diffrent word. 

But my main point was that development costs are only a part of equation and sometimes marketing costs can be several points higher than AAA game development.

I'm not sure you understood my answer, on both counts... coverage of media doesn't have to be so expensive to begin with, is what I'm saying...



Until you've played it, every game is a system seller!

the original trolls

Wii FC: 4810 9420 3131 7558
MHTri: name=BOo BoO/ID=BZBLEX/region=US

mini-games on consoles, cinematic games on handhelds, what's next? GameBoy IMAX?

Official Member of the Pikmin Fan Club

gumby_trucker said:
Faxanadu said:
Mr Khan said:

Not like Wii owners would buy anything they'd have to sell anyway. Nintendo games only sell on Nintendo systems, after al


That is because Nintendo does not publish on other systems.

Ha! Epic Fail! love it!





Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

@gumbytrucker  where were you last gen?? thats exactly what PS2 did, there were ass loads of games and they just took the popular ones and HDed them up for these consoles and the PSN/Live have a hell of a lot of original ideas. I would argue that some 3rd parties did make some good games on Wii that did crazy profit. Just Dance, Carnival games, Ea sports active, im sure they cost less to make than even some of the OMG Wii games and they sell like made. I think some Ninty fans wanted there cake and eat it too. YOu wanted the motion controls but never took in account that because the hardware was so weak and different compared to the HDs which is what was being focused on that there would be a lot of things missed out on. I knew this from day one, which is why i was never just gonna be a Wii only owner. Lets be real here no console ever made except maybe the original Nintendo was all encompassing. As good as PS1 was it couldnt do FPSs for crap for one example. Ask yourself would Ubisoft spend the time and money to make say and Assassins Creed for Wii when they know damn well that not only is that audience established on the other consoles but its much cheaper to make a Just Dance and it would sell way more???



gumby_trucker said:
Yakuzaice said:
gumby_trucker said:

So basically what it comes down to is the lesser selling consoles still have a few more years left in them, and are now experiencing a second wave of growth due to new peripherals etc. but the leading seller (by far, might I add) is already a saturated market?

Seriously, watching that latest Unreal tech benchmark from Epic just made me want to cry...

The thing is that most third party developers pretty much treat the PS3 and 360 (PC too pretty often) as the same platform.  So if they are looking at that versus the Wii, then the Wii has never been the leading platform.

Also, why are you suprised that a company that makes its money by licensing middleware would want to show off the technical proficiency rather than artistic merit.  For example, should adobe only show off high art to advertise photoshop, or should they highlight the software's features?

Fair question about Epic. What saddens me is not the fact that they exist so much as the level of mainstream success they have achieved and the influence they have over the industry.

It is said that Epic were the ones who convinced Microsoft into doubling the amount of RAM in the 360, and now with this new tech demo for their engine it is most likely the cycle is repeating itself - Epic themselves aren't shy about calling the recent demo a "challenge" of sorts to next gen console manufacturers...

The reason this makes me sad is that they are in fact encouraging an unhealthy trend in the games business in which the same games are made over and over again with only an increasingly inflated budget to distinguish between them... That may sound cynical to you but the fact is the variance in the so called game-space made up with this line of thinking is easily dwarfed by the potential versatility games as a whole can offer. Just think about the huge spectrum of games from tetris and defender and pac man to blaster master to sim city to jumping flash and you can see that this trend is suffocating creativity.

And to make matters worse it causes an inflation of expectations by consumers across the board! Suddenly Tetris isn't good enough unless it's in HD like the other big boy games! What a load of horse sh*t! Tetris has proven to have quadruple the staying power of Unreal, if not more! But instead of encouraging developers to make crazy unproven concepts that nine times out of ten may make very little money (or fail even altogether) until that masterful stroke of genius that changes gaming forever, we are being pushed into a shiny, pixel shaded corner for the rest of time!

This is the kind of thinking that brings people to make imbecilic statements like "but there aren't any more genres left to explore... all games are either FPS, TPS, RTS, platformers, fighters or racing games"....

So EPIC is the reason that the industry is spirlaling downward?