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1 Way PC Gaming hurts Console Gaming : Pc gamers whine so much that it has become boring, oh sorry, that doesn't hurt Console gaming.



Kudistos Megistos said:
brendude13 said:

Gaming has always dominated on consoles, it isn't like they just barged in and "ruined teh grafix!".

Nobody had a computer in the NES / SNES era, the PS1 and PS2 sold into the hundreds of millions and it seems like the PS3, Wii and XBOX 360 are doing just aswell.

The matter of the fact is, without consoles, PC gaming wouldn't exist or be as big as it is now. Your "12 points" were pretty poor IMO.

How is it possible to get so much wrong in such a short post?



Feel free to prove me wrong, everything I stated was fact.



brendude13 said:
Kudistos Megistos said:
brendude13 said:

Gaming has always dominated on consoles, it isn't like they just barged in and "ruined teh grafix!".

Nobody had a computer in the NES / SNES era, the PS1 and PS2 sold into the hundreds of millions and it seems like the PS3, Wii and XBOX 360 are doing just aswell.

The matter of the fact is, without consoles, PC gaming wouldn't exist or be as big as it is now. Your "12 points" were pretty poor IMO.

How is it possible to get so much wrong in such a short post?



Feel free to prove me wrong, everything I stated was fact.

I had a computer during the NES/SNES era.  They were called 286/386/486.  They mainly used DOS operating system to play games on and there were such classic like Command & Conquer, Magic Carpet, Sim City, Sim Theme Park, Warcraft, etc...  Just because you or your friends didn't have a computer during that era didn't mean others weren't gaming on the PC.  DOS gaming was decently popular back in the day and not some barely used system.  My most found memories of PC gaming would be playing against my friends on a 14.4 or 28k modem with games such as Duke Nukem 3D and Red Alert.



Apple II gaming was where it was at. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Final-Fan said:
vlad321 said:
Final-Fan said:

Hmm ... you are completely wrong.  The industry is something that can be argued, but the morals are ... well blatantly obvious to me. 

When you buy a new game, it's yours, just like if you bought a book or a car.  You read the book, play the game, drive the car.  You don't own the copyright but you own the fucking property.  The company got its money when it sold that property and from that moment it does not control what the new owner does with it, nor is there any moral reason it should have a say in what you do with it.  When you're tired of reading, playing, or driving you can sell your own property to someone else who wants to read, play, or drive it. 

It really annoys me when companies cripple their products to make it so you don't control the property -- or don't even purchase property at all, just a "license".  You're paying for permission to play the game, just like a long term rental.  Blockbuster is the past, not the future.

With piracy, no, it's not like stealing a car.  (Just to reassure you I don't hold to that idiocy.)  It's a little like, oh, counterfeiting.  But really it's its own thing.  There's just not any non-computer analogy for the ability to create endless copies of something almost for free and distribute them with the greatest of ease. 

Unlike with used games, or books, or cars, you are CREATING property.  It's not the same thing.  You are equating unequal paradigms.

You can't just CREATE the property. The property is the idea of the music/game/book etc. You don't buy a cd/book for the disc or the paper of the book. The value lies within the experience you had from the entertainment, whatever it was. As far as the creator is concerned you got the value of his property without him seeing money (which is also why it is dumb to compare it to physical goods). This is the case of both piracy and the use market. Why i say that the used market is a tiny bit worse, not much though, is because someone else makes money off of the creator's property, on top of the creator not seeing any compensation.

That is why, as far as the creator is concerned, both are basically the exact same, with one a tiny bit worse.

It's true that I didn't buy the StarCraft II computer game just for the box and the plastic coaster within.  But on the other hand, it's a long established practice, and one I fully support, that the physical product is a transferrable license to the content within, either on paper or on disk.  TRANSFERRABLE.  The concept of "ownership" to me implies the power over what is done from that point on with the product, which is why I hate non-resellable games.  Let me go into detail below. 

What I get from what you said is that your position is that there is only one actual "property" of StarCraft II, and every game out there is just a little piece of it, all tied together by ethereal strings and you're paying Blizzard to hand you a string so you can have access to Blizzard's property. 

I, on the other hand, think that (using books for an example) the book is the physical property, which is bought by the customer and owned by the customer, to do with as he pleases, and which contains a piece of the intellectual property, which is owned by the author/publisher/whatever.  In this case the book (which you OWN) contains the string from the last example's metaphor (the strings being the IP, and which you DON'T own), but the property containing the string is completely in the control of the customer, and the author has no right to take that string out of the property which is not theirs, and no right to control what is done with that property, including reselling it to someone else who would then own that property and have access to that string. 

I admit that some publishers are treating their games as being the first type (your idea), to control what you can do with the string, because they say it's still theirs and you're just paying to hold it, and they have set it up so that you can't hand it to someone else.  I hate that.  I think that they shouldn't control the string anymore.  On a practical level, since publishers are capable of making their games fit your definition, that may mean your idea is factually more correct, and any control I have over the strings of my games is at the sufferance of publishers.  But morally, I'm sticking with my version. 

P.S.  So your position is that, morally, the hierarchy would be (bad to worse):  free pirated stuff --> used stuff --------------------> pirated stuff that people pay for ... right?

P.P.S.  So in that metaphor, piracy is creating counterfeit strings.  That's how it creates property.


Let me just say this to make it clear, I am totally agreeing with you that the used market is just fine.I also like your string analogy and fully agree with it to view it as a form of property.

I didn't make this clear enough, but what makes you buy a book or game is the experience you had with it. The entertainment and joy, if you will. When you pass your string onto the next person, you don't lose the value, utility if you wish, that you gained from the book/game unless someone hits you on the head and you forget about it. Therefore you don't just transfer the value (this is the only way to compare ideas to physical goods, more in a second), but you quite literally duplicate it. Now there is someone else out there who receives value from the same string. The creator's product is that utility you gain from the game which you jsut doubled. He sees no reward for the duplication of utility.

This is actually very similar to physical goods. If you take a car as an example. Its value is the ability to get you around, and to have fun driving if you are into it. Once you sell it, you have lost the value of the car. It's gone, and you no longer have it. You would have to make a copy of the car, then sell it (counterfeit), for you to be able to retain its value, and have someone else also have its value.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Ail said:

I have to disagree with blaming consoles for the fact that most PC games don't use cutting edge graphics.

Fact is that despite what the author is trying to say, not every PC gamer has a cutting edge machine.

 

Lets not kid ourselves, the most successfull PC developer is Blizzard, last I checked they didn't release their games on consoles so that's not what is holding them back and despite that their games don't go full out using every last bit of power on your machine.

The reason is simple, they know that to have broad appeal you can't target the high end PC only...

computer games come out with low to insane levels of graphics.  hell witcher 2 right now on ultimate low and low resolution looks like a ps1 game, meanwhile i'm not sure if anyoen has a computer that can run it on its maximum settings and resolution.

and guess waht, that game cost a fraction to make as what most hd console games cost.  so do they have to solely target the uber high end pc's?  no, that is the beauty of pc games, you can set your own graphics so that you can run it optimally.

 

edit: and i love how so many of you say PC gamers are complaining.  Well duh, but its not a selfish whine.  Most of our whinning is when you change things for the worse.  We aren't asking for the impossible.  The most common is one he already mentioned.  MENU control.  I mean wtf, we have a perfectly good mouse and plenty of keys, why restrict us to using arrow keys and pushing S or enter, or whatever we set it up to be.  Or hell even worse, NOT letting us set up buttons to what we want.  We dont' care if a game is on PC, 360, PS3, Wii, Ds or you name it.  We just don't want you shitting on us.  if you want to keep graphics back so that you can easily port to all 3 systems or wahtever that is fine, but don't gimp our controls or menu.



sethnintendo said:
brendude13 said:
Kudistos Megistos said:
brendude13 said:

Gaming has always dominated on consoles, it isn't like they just barged in and "ruined teh grafix!".

Nobody had a computer in the NES / SNES era, the PS1 and PS2 sold into the hundreds of millions and it seems like the PS3, Wii and XBOX 360 are doing just aswell.

The matter of the fact is, without consoles, PC gaming wouldn't exist or be as big as it is now. Your "12 points" were pretty poor IMO.

How is it possible to get so much wrong in such a short post?



Feel free to prove me wrong, everything I stated was fact.

I had a computer during the NES/SNES era.  They were called 286/386/486.  They mainly used DOS operating system to play games on and there were such classic like Command & Conquer, Magic Carpet, Sim City, Sim Theme Park, Warcraft, etc...  Just because you or your friends didn't have a computer during that era didn't mean others weren't gaming on the PC.  DOS gaming was decently popular back in the day and not some barely used system.  My most found memories of PC gaming would be playing against my friends on a 14.4 or 28k modem with games such as Duke Nukem 3D and Red Alert.

Wow, just did some research, apparently there were more than 10 million computers in the U.S when the NES was out, never knew that.

Anyway...Scratch that, barely anybody had a PC during the NES / SNES era. I didn't have a computer until 2002, I don't know anybody that has a PC before 1990, but then again, I do live in the UK where computers probably weren't as popular outside of offices.

Anyway, I am sick to death of PC fanboys thinking that the PC is the reason gaming exists now, that isn't true.



vlad321 said:
Final-Fan said:

It's true that I didn't buy the StarCraft II computer game just for the box and the plastic coaster within.  But on the other hand, it's a long established practice, and one I fully support, that the physical product is a transferrable license to the content within, either on paper or on disk.  TRANSFERRABLE.  The concept of "ownership" to me implies the power over what is done from that point on with the product, which is why I hate non-resellable games.  Let me go into detail below. 

What I get from what you said is that your position is that there is only one actual "property" of StarCraft II, and every game out there is just a little piece of it, all tied together by ethereal strings and you're paying Blizzard to hand you a string so you can have access to Blizzard's property. 

I, on the other hand, think that (using books for an example) the book is the physical property, which is bought by the customer and owned by the customer, to do with as he pleases, and which contains a piece of the intellectual property, which is owned by the author/publisher/whatever.  In this case the book (which you OWN) contains the string from the last example's metaphor (the strings being the IP, and which you DON'T own), but the property containing the string is completely in the control of the customer, and the author has no right to take that string out of the property which is not theirs, and no right to control what is done with that property, including reselling it to someone else who would then own that property and have access to that string. 

I admit that some publishers are treating their games as being the first type (your idea), to control what you can do with the string, because they say it's still theirs and you're just paying to hold it, and they have set it up so that you can't hand it to someone else.  I hate that.  I think that they shouldn't control the string anymore.  On a practical level, since publishers are capable of making their games fit your definition, that may mean your idea is factually more correct, and any control I have over the strings of my games is at the sufferance of publishers.  But morally, I'm sticking with my version. 

P.S.  So your position is that, morally, the hierarchy would be (bad to worse):  free pirated stuff --> used stuff --------------------> pirated stuff that people pay for ... right?

P.P.S.  So in that metaphor, piracy is creating counterfeit strings.  That's how it creates property.


Let me just say this to make it clear, I am totally agreeing with you that the used market is just fine.I also like your string analogy and fully agree with it to view it as a form of property.

I didn't make this clear enough, but what makes you buy a book or game is the experience you had with it. The entertainment and joy, if you will. When you pass your string onto the next person, you don't lose the value, utility if you wish, that you gained from the book/game unless someone hits you on the head and you forget about it. Therefore you don't just transfer the value (this is the only way to compare ideas to physical goods, more in a second), but you quite literally duplicate it. Now there is someone else out there who receives value from the same string. The creator's product is that utility you gain from the game which you jsut doubled. He sees no reward for the duplication of utility.

This is actually very similar to physical goods. If you take a car as an example. Its value is the ability to get you around, and to have fun driving if you are into it. Once you sell it, you have lost the value of the car. It's gone, and you no longer have it. You would have to make a copy of the car, then sell it (counterfeit), for you to be able to retain its value, and have someone else also have its value.

Well, I at least understand that position, but I still totally disagree.  You cannot reread a book you've sold.  You cannot replay a game you've sold.  Admittedly you don't read a book as often as you drive a car, but that is still different from 500 people playing the same pirated game at once. 

It's not in any way duplicated. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

brendude13 said:

Wow, just did some research, apparently there were more than 10 million computers in the U.S when the NES was out, never knew that.

Anyway...Scratch that, barely anybody had a PC during the NES / SNES era. I didn't have a computer until 2002, I don't know anybody that has a PC before 1990, but then again, I do live in the UK where computers probably weren't as popular outside of offices.

Anyway, I am sick to death of PC fanboys thinking that the PC is the reason gaming exists now, that isn't true.

I think you mean "PC fanboys thinking the PC is where all advancements in gaming happen" or something like that, right? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!