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Forums - General - Islam is not bad, too many of you are ignorant of history.

Kamal said:
Lostplanet22 said:


- Honor killing... Is happening more...





The thing with honour killings it mainly has to with marrying within your own caste and if that doesn't happening your gonna get the chop. Don't know how people can use religion as a basis for this.

Anyway peoples opinions won;t change about Islam which isn't suprising at all. So we have to make the change we have to show them how it is meant to be, one person at a time. It will be a struggle but hopefully we'll get out of this phase sooner rather then later.

The biggest problem with honor killing is not the frequency of it happening but how people react about it...  A Man killing his own wife/daugther can happen everywhere in every relgion...  THe problem is the last time I heard about it (Father stabbed his daughter until she died because she was 17 and had an non-muslim boyfriend) the media also asked what the moslim youth thought about it..And sadly many of the responses were... 'She deserved it'...This is the problem that fucks me up....Especially if those are kind of boys who probably have an non muslim girlfriend;..And no wonder this creates an dislike of the Islam.. 



 

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Christianity and Islam have both been through this stage: when power-hungry followers of the religion insisted (contrary to the words of their holy books, because Christianity also doesn't permit mass murder) that everyone else was wrong and evil and should be killed.

Christianity grew out of it before the real advent of world politics and human rights. Islam was founded later, and therefore has not yet grown out of it. Therein lies the problem.

And of course, it's only a minority of Muslims and all that, but the Crusades were carried out by a minority of Christians. Just because something was done by a minority doesn't excuse it, and nor does it sever its ties with the religion. Christianity was responsible for the atrocities of the crusades and the Inquisition. Islam is responsible for the actions of al-Qaeda and the oppression of people in the Middle East (which is thankfully now ending).



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Im gonna be stepping in some shit when i say this , but its my opinion and ill probably get banned for it, like everything else i do...

I have no hate towards Islam, or any other religion, but how many other religions are going through mass murder these days because a slight blief difference? Sure the christans did teh same thing with the crusaders but that was back before humans were advanced, maybe its just because alot (im sure most of them are, if im not please point me out) of muslim countrys have third world living conditions. 

 

With that said, I would like to point out that im not dodging them at the malls, or anything stupid like that.



1 quarter of british muslim youth and 1 fifth of us muslim youth support suicide bombings.

and yet conservative estimates claim only 10% of muslim population are "extremists" thats 150m worldwide...and way lower than the polls would suggest if the western youth openly speak like that in such numbers.



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badgenome said:
Mr Khan said:

Phase is a good way to describe it, though i'd still like to know why Islam and why now

The way I've always figured it...

The most obvious explanation is that, while there are exceptions, generally there's a high degree of correlation between poverty and religiosity. But clearly something deeper must be going on to explain the aggression. I think globalism and western multiculturalism both factor in pretty heavily here. Globalism because people are now more aware of what other people around the world are doing and what they have. Sayyid Qutb was an influential Islamist whose trip to America in the '40s seemed to have a profound impact on him, and a lot of the regression in the Islamic world strikes me as a similar backlash against modernity.

And multiculturalism because it's a nil, and you can't beat something with nothing. The timidity that this non-value breeds only emboldens the absolute worst elements in Islamdom. The most vociferous western feminists seem to pipe right down when it comes to the treatment of women in the Islamic world because, thanks to the insane hierarchy of political correctness, "Muslim" trumps "woman" every time. It's pretty hard to empower reformers and democrats in Islamic countries when you're busy fawning over the hardliners and how authentically anti-US/Bush/capitalism/whatever they are.

Basically a replacement for Communism as a rallying cry for the dispossessed? I would debate the latter point as well, because many Western efforts are focused on bettering the lot of women in the Muslim world, certainly one of the main goals as far as social development in Afghanistan was education for girls, and some of my associates back in DC were working hard on a campaign to make it illegal for Americans to send their daughters on trips to other countries for the purpose of female genital mutilation (obviously illegal in this country, but they get around that by just sending them to Mali or somewhere and having it done anyway)



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Mr Khan said:

Basically a replacement for Communism as a rallying cry for the dispossessed? I would debate the latter point as well, because many Western efforts are focused on bettering the lot of women in the Muslim world, certainly one of the main goals as far as social development in Afghanistan was education for girls, and some of my associates back in DC were working hard on a campaign to make it illegal for Americans to send their daughters on trips to other countries for the purpose of female genital mutilation (obviously illegal in this country, but they get around that by just sending them to Mali or somewhere and having it done anyway)

Yeah, but as the multiple failed bans in Egypt have shown, making such things illegal does fuck all. You have to win the argument, and there are way too many westerners who like to fancy themselves as liberals but are unwilling to strongly and unequivocally condemn that kind of barbarism. I understand that not everyone is blessed with the intelligence and eloquence of, say, Christopher Hitchens, but everyone can be just as unapologetic as he is in defense of human rights.



Kantor said:

Christianity and Islam have both been through this stage: when power-hungry followers of the religion insisted (contrary to the words of their holy books, because Christianity also doesn't permit mass murder) that everyone else was wrong and evil and should be killed.

Christianity grew out of it before the real advent of world politics and human rights. Islam was founded later, and therefore has not yet grown out of it. Therein lies the problem.

And of course, it's only a minority of Muslims and all that, but the Crusades were carried out by a minority of Christians. Just because something was done by a minority doesn't excuse it, and nor does it sever its ties with the religion. Christianity was responsible for the atrocities of the crusades and the Inquisition. Islam is responsible for the actions of al-Qaeda and the oppression of people in the Middle East (which is thankfully now ending).

This treads on incredibly volatile ground, but maybe Christianity didn't grow out of it, but the peoples who practiced Christianity did. I mean today the religion is mostly the domain of reasonably affluent and developed peoples, and the ideological mouthpieces of Christianity are also in these highly developed society (which means that Christian pockets in less developed countries are receiving their ideology from the well-off, if Christianity is being proselytized in their area). The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda is probably the exception that proves rule, perhaps, this brutal and ostensibly Christian movement in the back-country shows that the religion can still be hijacked for violent purposes in this day

The Muslims in Europe are all immigrants or near immigrants, for instance, and the hotbeds of extremism come from places where Muslim populations are horribly mistreated, like Israel or the North Caucasus, or back-territories like Afghanistan

The danger of course comes from implying that Muslim peoples are "less developed," and because of that are prone to irresponsible behavior, which treads dangerously close to a purely racist argument.



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superchunk said:

3. The Holy Land had already, peacefully, been under Muslim control for over 300 years by the time of the firts Crusade  and during all that time, and all the time after, Muslims freely allowed Jews and Christians to worship at their respective sites. However, during the Christian ruled times the Jews and Muslims were allowed no such freedoms and in fact the Dome of the Rock and entire Temple area were used as a trash heap and horse stable.

Besides that, he got his facts mixed up. It was most of the Frankish FOOT SOLDIERS who were sold into slavery, whereas the civilians were allowed to leave the city even without ransom. And afterwards, Jews were summoned and allowed to resettle in the city and practice their beliefs. Christians were allowed pilgrimage to Jerusalem after the Treaty of Ramla.



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Mr Khan said:
Kantor said:

Christianity and Islam have both been through this stage: when power-hungry followers of the religion insisted (contrary to the words of their holy books, because Christianity also doesn't permit mass murder) that everyone else was wrong and evil and should be killed.

Christianity grew out of it before the real advent of world politics and human rights. Islam was founded later, and therefore has not yet grown out of it. Therein lies the problem.

And of course, it's only a minority of Muslims and all that, but the Crusades were carried out by a minority of Christians. Just because something was done by a minority doesn't excuse it, and nor does it sever its ties with the religion. Christianity was responsible for the atrocities of the crusades and the Inquisition. Islam is responsible for the actions of al-Qaeda and the oppression of people in the Middle East (which is thankfully now ending).

This treads on incredibly volatile ground, but maybe Christianity didn't grow out of it, but the peoples who practiced Christianity did. I mean today the religion is mostly the domain of reasonably affluent and developed peoples, and the ideological mouthpieces of Christianity are also in these highly developed society (which means that Christian pockets in less developed countries are receiving their ideology from the well-off, if Christianity is being proselytized in their area). The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda is probably the exception that proves rule, perhaps, this brutal and ostensibly Christian movement in the back-country shows that the religion can still be hijacked for violent purposes in this day

The Muslims in Europe are all immigrants or near immigrants, for instance, and the hotbeds of extremism come from places where Muslim populations are horribly mistreated, like Israel or the North Caucasus, or back-territories like Afghanistan

The danger of course comes from implying that Muslim peoples are "less developed," and because of that are prone to irresponsible behavior, which treads dangerously close to a purely racist argument.

Well, there's no denying that the West has done far better for itself than the Middle East. There are some poor Christian countries (notably those in Africa) and some wealthy Muslim countries (Turkey is one). However, in general, Christian nations are far richer than Muslim nations. That's a fact, and it's not racist in the slightest.



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Mr Khan said:
Kantor said:

Christianity and Islam have both been through this stage: when power-hungry followers of the religion insisted (contrary to the words of their holy books, because Christianity also doesn't permit mass murder) that everyone else was wrong and evil and should be killed.

Christianity grew out of it before the real advent of world politics and human rights. Islam was founded later, and therefore has not yet grown out of it. Therein lies the problem.

And of course, it's only a minority of Muslims and all that, but the Crusades were carried out by a minority of Christians. Just because something was done by a minority doesn't excuse it, and nor does it sever its ties with the religion. Christianity was responsible for the atrocities of the crusades and the Inquisition. Islam is responsible for the actions of al-Qaeda and the oppression of people in the Middle East (which is thankfully now ending).

This treads on incredibly volatile ground, but maybe Christianity didn't grow out of it, but the peoples who practiced Christianity did. I mean today the religion is mostly the domain of reasonably affluent and developed peoples, and the ideological mouthpieces of Christianity are also in these highly developed society (which means that Christian pockets in less developed countries are receiving their ideology from the well-off, if Christianity is being proselytized in their area). The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda is probably the exception that proves rule, perhaps, this brutal and ostensibly Christian movement in the back-country shows that the religion can still be hijacked for violent purposes in this day

The Muslims in Europe are all immigrants or near immigrants, for instance, and the hotbeds of extremism come from places where Muslim populations are horribly mistreated, like Israel or the North Caucasus, or back-territories like Afghanistan

The danger of course comes from implying that Muslim peoples are "less developed," and because of that are prone to irresponsible behavior, which treads dangerously close to a purely racist argument.

I wouldn't say that it was because Christians got out of it, but we broke up the theocratic rule of the Catholic Church.

Most if not all issues of extremism in Christianity come from one, and only one place: the Vatican. The reformation and its leaders were able to break up the Catholic power base by introducing new (not really new, just Biblically-based) ideas into the system, which helped ensure the Church didn't control it all.

Look at the collective aggression of the Protestant church since the 16th century. You can't really say they have comitted many atrocities when compared to other major religious or ideological subsects.

Because of that, I wonder what it'd take for Muslims to become less violent. Last I checked, the religion's entire existence has been steeped in war and conquering since its inception.That doesn't bode well for me with hopes, unless they can enact very secular states in every Muslim-majority country.

e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests



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