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Forums - Sales - Looks like GT5's sales performance is making a lot of haters silent..

jarrod on 10 January 2011
stopstopp said:
jarrod said:
Mordred11 said:

LOL @ people still comparing MK with GT5,the two games have nothing to do with eachother.

It's like comparing Avatar and Inception.


They're in the same genre (though not subgenre), that's the point for comparison.  

I think there's a bit of revisionism going on though, Mario Kart tends to get retroactively positioned as the heavy weight juggernaut but that's not at all the case.  Before this generation, no Mario Kart had sold over 10m, while every GT had.  This gen we have two Mario Karts over 20m, and two GTs that likely won't hit 10m... it's really been a massive seachange this gen, and more reflective of the overall consumer shift towards Nintendo and away from PlayStation.

Lol wat?

Mario Kart sold over 20 million because of install base alone, on a thriving console. Compared to the others, it isn't all that special, it could even be the worst selling I haven't checked in a while. Mario Kart DS is on an even better selling console, but sold worse. Although handheld attachment rates are responsible for that.

GT on the other hand is in the complete opposite position. Its like it is on Gamecube (although not as bad), but it looks like it will sell 10 million anyway showing GT has some real strength. PSP GT had no chance, that console was way too dead to for it to sell 10 million, plus handheld attachment rates are so horrible outside japan it never had a chance. PSP would have alive, plus twice as big to sell that kind of numbers. It's not GT's fault, it's handheld and PSP's dead platform at fault for that.


Lol wat indeed... I already basically said this.  Like 3 times.

What do you think I was talking about with "shift towards Nintendo and away from PlayStation"?  I'm talking about the systems, Mario Kart and GT themselves are basically the same as ever, the difference this generation is the platform they're on...



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stopstopp on 10 January 2011
jarrod said:
stopstopp said:
jarrod said:
Mordred11 said:

LOL @ people still comparing MK with GT5,the two games have nothing to do with eachother.

It's like comparing Avatar and Inception.


They're in the same genre (though not subgenre), that's the point for comparison.  

I think there's a bit of revisionism going on though, Mario Kart tends to get retroactively positioned as the heavy weight juggernaut but that's not at all the case.  Before this generation, no Mario Kart had sold over 10m, while every GT had.  This gen we have two Mario Karts over 20m, and two GTs that likely won't hit 10m... it's really been a massive seachange this gen, and more reflective of the overall consumer shift towards Nintendo and away from PlayStation.

Lol wat?

Mario Kart sold over 20 million because of install base alone, on a thriving console. Compared to the others, it isn't all that special, it could even be the worst selling I haven't checked in a while. Mario Kart DS is on an even better selling console, but sold worse. Although handheld attachment rates are responsible for that.

GT on the other hand is in the complete opposite position. Its like it is on Gamecube (although not as bad), but it looks like it will sell 10 million anyway showing GT has some real strength. PSP GT had no chance, that console was way too dead to for it to sell 10 million, plus handheld attachment rates are so horrible outside japan it never had a chance. PSP would have alive, plus twice as big to sell that kind of numbers. It's not GT's fault, it's handheld and PSP's dead platform at fault for that.


Lol wat indeed... I already basically said this.  Like 3 times.

What do you think I was talking about with "shift towards Nintendo and away from PlayStation"?  I'm talking about the systems, Mario Kart and GT themselves are basically the same as ever, the difference this generation is the platform they're on...

You should have probably made a new paragraph or something, it's like right there and easier to confuse.



jarrod on 10 January 2011
pezus said:

Lol, holding up? It's massively up on GT4 in its biggest and by far the most important region. 

It's ahead simply due to the holiday launch timing, you're comparing apples with oranges here.  And despite the holiday, America and Japan aren't faring quite so well... look at the larger picture.

Besides which, GT4 was the 2nd series entry on PS2, there's invariably some franchise fatigue at play there.  This goes for most big PS2 series (MGS3, FFXII, DMC2/3, Mingol 4, Tekken 5, SC3, etc, etc)... the standard for initial current gen entries should really be the initial PS2 entries anyway, as both have the "first mover" franchise appeal.



stopstopp on 10 January 2011
jarrod said:
pezus said:
jarrod said:
Mordred11 said:
Kasz216 said:
Mordred11 said:

LOL @ people still comparing MK with GT5,the two games have nothing to do with eachother.

It's like comparing Avatar and Inception

 You know, you really set yourself up for a HUGE troll comment there.

Comaping a good movie (Inception) with a bad movie (avatar) that people only like because of it's amazing graphics and effects.

Avatar and Inception are both sci-fi,but not in the same sub-genre.Avatar made 3 times more money than Inception,probably where MK and GT5 will also sit when all is said and done.

Avatar was so popular,mainly because the reputation of it's producer,James Cameron,which made a shitload of money with previous movies,especially Titanic and it's effects were enjoyable to watch.That's similar to MK selling,because the reputation of it's developer and Mario,and the fun/enjoy it gives you.

Inception,however,was produced by Christopher Nolan,someone who's made top-quality movies during his career,but his movie wasn't for the casuals,like Avatar was,you had to actually think a bit to understand it.That's similar to GT5,who's been made by PD,a top-quality game-studio,and you actually need some skill to finish the game.

All in all,I think it's a very good comparison.

This comparison might work if all Nolan's earlier films had outsold all Cameron's... but that's pretty far from the case.  Again, this comparison relies on a revisionist stance, that Mario Kart was the IP heavyweight when in fact before this generation GT was by far the bigger brand.  And there's also the fact that GT used to be big with casuals (you don't sell 10-15 million units of anything in this industry without them)... the reason Mario Kart took off while GT atrophied this generation isn't due to their content so much as it is the machines they released on and thus audiences they had to sell to.  That's the real differentiator this generation, Mario Kart and GT didn't suddenly change design wise... which is why the Avatar/Inception comparison ultimately falls flat.

You're writing like GT's popularity has lessened while it certainly has not.

It's holding up in one region (Europe) and GT5 most likely won't hit 10m, while GT PSP bombed by series standards.  It's not exactly business as usual for Gran Turismo.

And again, I'm saying the blame should be laid at the platforms, not the games themselves (well, at least in GT5's case, I know GT PSP had some blowback content wise).  GT's popularity hasn't lessened so much as it just doesn't have the sort of massive mainstream audience ready to sell in to that it had on PS1/PS2.

GT PSP didn't bomb, it didn't have any other handheld one to compare itself too. Handhelds work way differently than consoles. If it wasn't for Japan, we would see that the rest of the world doesn't buy handheld games anywhere near to the amount of home consoles.



jarrod on 10 January 2011
stopstopp said:

You should have probably made a new paragraph or something, it's like right there and easier to confuse.

Well, sorry for the confusion.  I basically agree though, it's an issue of available/potential audience more than anything.  Both Mario Kart and GT are franchises with a lot of casual/mainstream pull, they're going to do a whole lot better when they have a large casual/mainstream audience to sell in to.  On a more niche/core userbase, they're going to suffer more than most racers probably would.



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jarrod on 10 January 2011
stopstopp said:
jarrod said:
pezus said:
jarrod said:
Mordred11 said:
Kasz216 said:
Mordred11 said:

LOL @ people still comparing MK with GT5,the two games have nothing to do with eachother.

It's like comparing Avatar and Inception

 You know, you really set yourself up for a HUGE troll comment there.

Comaping a good movie (Inception) with a bad movie (avatar) that people only like because of it's amazing graphics and effects.

Avatar and Inception are both sci-fi,but not in the same sub-genre.Avatar made 3 times more money than Inception,probably where MK and GT5 will also sit when all is said and done.

Avatar was so popular,mainly because the reputation of it's producer,James Cameron,which made a shitload of money with previous movies,especially Titanic and it's effects were enjoyable to watch.That's similar to MK selling,because the reputation of it's developer and Mario,and the fun/enjoy it gives you.

Inception,however,was produced by Christopher Nolan,someone who's made top-quality movies during his career,but his movie wasn't for the casuals,like Avatar was,you had to actually think a bit to understand it.That's similar to GT5,who's been made by PD,a top-quality game-studio,and you actually need some skill to finish the game.

All in all,I think it's a very good comparison.

This comparison might work if all Nolan's earlier films had outsold all Cameron's... but that's pretty far from the case.  Again, this comparison relies on a revisionist stance, that Mario Kart was the IP heavyweight when in fact before this generation GT was by far the bigger brand.  And there's also the fact that GT used to be big with casuals (you don't sell 10-15 million units of anything in this industry without them)... the reason Mario Kart took off while GT atrophied this generation isn't due to their content so much as it is the machines they released on and thus audiences they had to sell to.  That's the real differentiator this generation, Mario Kart and GT didn't suddenly change design wise... which is why the Avatar/Inception comparison ultimately falls flat.

You're writing like GT's popularity has lessened while it certainly has not.

It's holding up in one region (Europe) and GT5 most likely won't hit 10m, while GT PSP bombed by series standards.  It's not exactly business as usual for Gran Turismo.

And again, I'm saying the blame should be laid at the platforms, not the games themselves (well, at least in GT5's case, I know GT PSP had some blowback content wise).  GT's popularity hasn't lessened so much as it just doesn't have the sort of massive mainstream audience ready to sell in to that it had on PS1/PS2.

GT PSP didn't bomb, it didn't have any other handheld one to compare itself too. Handhelds work way differently than consoles. If it wasn't for Japan, we would see that the rest of the world doesn't buy handheld games anywhere near to the amount of home consoles.

Bombed by series standards, there's a difference.  Some games are indeed better suited to certain platforms (home vs handheld consoles), though I don't know you can really make that case for racers.  Especially when Mario Kart's done so exceedingly well on DS.

GT PSP did have (reduced) content working against though, so it had another negative beyond what GT5 faces (which is purely a less mainstream userbase to sell to).



stopstopp on 10 January 2011
jarrod said:
stopstopp said:
jarrod said:

It's holding up in one region (Europe) and GT5 most likely won't hit 10m, while GT PSP bombed by series standards.  It's not exactly business as usual for Gran Turismo.

And again, I'm saying the blame should be laid at the platforms, not the games themselves (well, at least in GT5's case, I know GT PSP had some blowback content wise).  GT's popularity hasn't lessened so much as it just doesn't have the sort of massive mainstream audience ready to sell in to that it had on PS1/PS2.

GT PSP didn't bomb, it didn't have any other handheld one to compare itself too. Handhelds work way differently than consoles. If it wasn't for Japan, we would see that the rest of the world doesn't buy handheld games anywhere near to the amount of home consoles.

Bombed by series standards, there's a difference.  Some games are indeed better suited to certain platforms (home vs handheld consoles), though I don't know you can really make that case for racers.  Especially when Mario Kart's done so exceedingly well on DS.

GT PSP did have (reduced) content working against though, so it had another negative beyond what GT5 faces (which is purely a less mainstream userbase to sell to).

Compared to home Mario Karts, Mario Kart DS bombed so hard. Only 20 million sales on a 145 million consoles compared to 26 million on an 84 million selling console. Looks like a huge bomb to me.



jarrod on 10 January 2011
stopstopp said:
jarrod said:
stopstopp said:
jarrod said:
 

It's holding up in one region (Europe) and GT5 most likely won't hit 10m, while GT PSP bombed by series standards.  It's not exactly business as usual for Gran Turismo.

And again, I'm saying the blame should be laid at the platforms, not the games themselves (well, at least in GT5's case, I know GT PSP had some blowback content wise).  GT's popularity hasn't lessened so much as it just doesn't have the sort of massive mainstream audience ready to sell in to that it had on PS1/PS2.

GT PSP didn't bomb, it didn't have any other handheld one to compare itself too. Handhelds work way differently than consoles. If it wasn't for Japan, we would see that the rest of the world doesn't buy handheld games anywhere near to the amount of home consoles.

Bombed by series standards, there's a difference.  Some games are indeed better suited to certain platforms (home vs handheld consoles), though I don't know you can really make that case for racers.  Especially when Mario Kart's done so exceedingly well on DS.

GT PSP did have (reduced) content working against though, so it had another negative beyond what GT5 faces (which is purely a less mainstream userbase to sell to).

Compared to home Mario Karts, Mario Kart DS bombed so hard. Only 20 million sales on a 145 million consoles compared to 26 million on an 84 million selling console. Looks like a huge bomb to me.

Ratio argumemnts inherently favor smaller bases.  Funny thing is, even by ratio, Mario Kart DS still blows GT PSP away.  It actually even beats GT5's ratio, lol... I guess you also consider GT5 a "huge bomb"?



stopstopp on 10 January 2011
jarrod said:
stopstopp said:
jarrod said:
stopstopp said:
jarrod said:
 

It's holding up in one region (Europe) and GT5 most likely won't hit 10m, while GT PSP bombed by series standards.  It's not exactly business as usual for Gran Turismo.

And again, I'm saying the blame should be laid at the platforms, not the games themselves (well, at least in GT5's case, I know GT PSP had some blowback content wise).  GT's popularity hasn't lessened so much as it just doesn't have the sort of massive mainstream audience ready to sell in to that it had on PS1/PS2.

GT PSP didn't bomb, it didn't have any other handheld one to compare itself too. Handhelds work way differently than consoles. If it wasn't for Japan, we would see that the rest of the world doesn't buy handheld games anywhere near to the amount of home consoles.

Bombed by series standards, there's a difference.  Some games are indeed better suited to certain platforms (home vs handheld consoles), though I don't know you can really make that case for racers.  Especially when Mario Kart's done so exceedingly well on DS.

GT PSP did have (reduced) content working against though, so it had another negative beyond what GT5 faces (which is purely a less mainstream userbase to sell to).

Compared to home Mario Karts, Mario Kart DS bombed so hard. Only 20 million sales on a 145 million consoles compared to 26 million on an 84 million selling console. Looks like a huge bomb to me.

Ratio argumemnts inherently favor smaller bases.  Funny thing is, even by ratio, Mario Kart DS still blows GT PSP away.  It actually even beats GT5's ratio, lol... I guess you also consider GT5 a "huge bomb"?

True it does, but I was just mearly making a point. You can't say GT PSP bombed if you don't say Mario Kart DS bombed.

Although considering GT5 sales are still in it's infancy, no, I don't consider it a bomb.



jarrod on 10 January 2011
pezus said:
jarrod said:
pezus said:

Lol, holding up? It's massively up on GT4 in its biggest and by far the most important region. 

It's ahead simply due to the holiday launch timing, you're comparing apples with oranges here.  And despite the holiday, America and Japan aren't faring quite so well... look at the larger picture.

Besides which, GT4 was the 2nd series entry on PS2, there's invariably some franchise fatigue at play there.  This goes for most big PS2 series (MGS3, FFXII, DMC2/3, Mingol 4, Tekken 5, SC3, etc, etc)... the standard for initial current gen entries should really be the initial PS2 entries anyway, as both have the "first mover" franchise appeal.

So, do you think it will start falling behind GT4 in Europe soon then?

The only reason GT3 sold more than GT4 is because it was heavily bundled in America. GT4 sold more than 3 in Europe so it's actually growing there.

GT5 is the second GT entry on PS3 to many PS3 owners. 5 million have it so I think that's fair to say.

I think GT4's first full year will be ahead of GT5 worldwide.   I do think GT5 might sell comparably overall in Europe, but in America and Japan there's pretty much no hope of it catching GT4 (and thus, eventually hitting 10m lifetime).

I think Prologue is dicey, but yeah I agree it did take some of that "first mover" appeal away from GT5 proper.  Then again, this was also something I talked about before GT5 released, and I was endlessly assured it wouldn't be the case by the usual GT cheerleaders.