Have you thought about the Free State Project?

I joined the Free State Project a few years ago. Corruption and injustice have gone on for far too long. The time to take power back from big government is now. The Free State Project is an effort to encourage liberty-loving people to unite and solve these problems. We are looking for people from all walks of life, ages, and creeds who think that government exists to protect people’s rights, and should not punish people for activities which interfere with no one else. The success of the Free State Project would mean lower taxes, an expansion of civil liberties, the legalization of victimless crimes, and overall, more freedom. Let’s vote with our feet and create liberty in our lifetime!

http://freestateproject.org/

@Farmageddon:

Only beacause people are like that. The reason is not important, the fact is that you can't assume the world is something it isn't and project the consequecences of a decision (having no army in this cases) on that imaginary world.

But people can change if they want to. It's not some thing part of the natural order of things (like dying) that can't be changed.  I'm not dicouraged by what the world is now, when thinking of what the world should become.

Yeah, sure. We kinda lost track of the context here :P

My point is that what people can do is not as important for deciding between having or not having an army as what people actually will do.

Because things are not that simple, that's the point. You can't just forget about reality and think about your "Plan" on a vacuum or it'll never work, it'd be even worse than doing nothing.

It's not forgeting about reality, it's called doing something. You can't just do nothing and expect things to just magically change. Do you think that that the world just magically changes once in a while? Or is it that some people decide that they won't take things as they are anymore?

I'm telling you, yes, you should do something. But you should plan your actions based on the world they will be made on, not the world you hope them to eventually achieve.

It would do better for the other side for whom it works to walk all over you. People prey on weakness. I know you don't like the idea of that, but it's how it is. If you want to change it, you have to first aknowlodge the problem. Just supposing it isn't there because "it doesn't need to be there" won't work at all.

There's a difference between a problem, and a solution. What I want to change is the solution, not deny that there is a problem.

Yeah, but youa are yet to provide us with a realistic alternative, one that could work in the world today, as it is now.

It's not always that simple, the world isn't a perfect Karma zero sum for each individual.

True, but when you play with fire, you may (probably) get burned.

Sure, nothing to disagree there. But sometimes ypu do have to deal with fire, you don't always have (or know you have) a better option.

You're missing the point. The institution of the army, the fact that it existis, ins't the fact to hate, but the way it's sometimes used. And they kinda do loose their free will :P

Soldiers don't always know precisely what's going on, but we're having this argument up there already.

@Farmageddon:

My point is that what people can do is not as important for deciding between having or not having an army as what people actually will do.

How can you determine what a person will do before he/she does it? You really can't. As long as something is a possibility, there's hope.

I can't determine hat a person will do, but I can be pretty sure how people work. There's a higher chance the world won't be here tomorrw than there is that everyone will just wake up behaving like they would in your perfect world.

I was watching MiB yesterday and K says something which is pertinent here. "A person can be smart. People are dumb".

I'm telling you, yes, you should do something. But you should plan your actions based on the world they will be made on, not the world you hope them to eventually achieve.

But that's counter-productive , and in the end will lead to nothing. Anyways, it's not like I have some big master plan to change the world (and I most likely won't be able to come up with one). If anything, I'll at least try to be how I see people should be, and not become corrupted by what people are.

No it's not, it's actually the best shot at making something work. Would you travel to the artic with summer clothes?

And I'm not saying you should be "corrupted by other people", only that you can't really expect people as a whole to suddenly start working differently over night and you can't really make a good decision expecting that, as it wont be an informed one.

Sure, nothing to disagree there. But sometimes ypu do have to deal with fire, you don't always have (or know you have) a better option.

In the case of war people (on either sides) choose the worst one. And as khasz pointed out, not all people who agree with war consider it to be a necessity.

I'm not arguing what's the best option, but telling you that many times most people don't even see an option. Sure, some other people or in some cirtuntances many people don't care if there's an option. That was my point earlier, you have to assume this as part of the world today, because it is. This people will do it when there's a big cost for them. Imagine if there was no cost. Imagine if you're the free target.

Have you thought about the Free State Project?

I joined the Free State Project a few years ago. Corruption and injustice have gone on for far too long. The time to take power back from big government is now. The Free State Project is an effort to encourage liberty-loving people to unite and solve these problems. We are looking for people from all walks of life, ages, and creeds who think that government exists to protect people’s rights, and should not punish people for activities which interfere with no one else. The success of the Free State Project would mean lower taxes, an expansion of civil liberties, the legalization of victimless crimes, and overall, more freedom. Let’s vote with our feet and create liberty in our lifetime!

http://freestateproject.org/

I really wish there was a chapter of the FSP in Florida. I would so join and help run the damn thing.

Isn't this type of thing against forum riles?

You could always recruit people from FL to move to NH.  There are so many folks moving from New England to FL they may be able to house swap.

@Farmageddon:

I can't determine hat a person will do, but I can be pretty sure how people work. There's a higher chance the world won't be here tomorrw than there is that everyone will just wake up behaving like they would in your perfect world.

I was watching MiB yesterday and K says something which is pertinent here. "A person can be smart. People are dumb".

But people can change, one step at a time. You should be aware that I'm not advocating for clapping my hands and the whole army disappearing (unless that happens to armies all around the world).

No it's not, it's actually the best shot at making something work. Would you travel to the artic with summer clothes?

Well with all this golbal warming stuff who knows...

And I'm not saying you should be "corrupted by other people", only that you can't really expect people as a whole to suddenly start working differently over night and you can't really make a good decision expecting that, as it wont be an informed one.

You need to start resisting the tide, or else the tide will sweep you away. Just think of all big changes that happend in the world and in society. They all started with people deciding to not take things as they were anymore. I'm not expecting results overnight, but even if it is baby steps, you still need to make some steps, else you're obviously standing still. Worrying so much on the "how" and being so afraid of uncertainties and change will lead you nowhere.

I`ll start answering from here. I want to trim this down or else it won`t ever end.

Sure you need to resist the tide, but in order to resist it sucessfully you need to know the tide. And of course you must take risks, but taking a risk is very different from ignoring information that`s screaming on your face.

Anyway, you already said you don`t advocate for the army to just disappear in one night, so this sn`t as much of a contention point.

The point I was making initially was simply that for the same reasons the army couldn`t be imediatly deactivated, you shouldn`t be hating on it as an institution either,

I'm not arguing what's the best option, but telling you that many times most people don't even see an option. Sure, some other people or in some cirtuntances many people don't care if there's an option. That was my point earlier, you have to assume this as part of the world today, because it is. This people will do it when there's a big cost for them. Imagine if there was no cost. Imagine if you're the free target.

People are stupid indeed.

Mandatory draft has nothing to do with it. Here in Brazil for exemple we have mandatory drafts and still just about everyone who's actually selected to serve wants to.

You're lucky, in other countries people have no say in it.

Yeah, probably has to do with big population and lower percetage of people going to college, so they have ore people than they`d need.

 It may not be the same in other places with that, and sure, if the war keeps going and people keep dying we'd eventually be called, but still that doesn't mean someone who didn't want to serve won't feel like it's the right thing to do given the situation we'd be on. Say someone invades your country and starts killing people and shit like that. You'd be angry. Most angry people want payback, they feel they're entitled. Are they right? Doesn't really matter. They wouldn't normally want to serve but now they wanna fight. They feel they have a valid cause.

Acting out of vengence can lead to unwise actions. Just because they'd feel angry doesn't mean they'd be right. Also, most contemporary wars have not been like that, and the fact that questions aren't asked and superiors are followed blindly means that peopel will end up fighting unjust wars. Just take a look at the US's current conflicts. Anti-globalisation terrorists made out to be more dangerous than the Soviet Union. The soldiers may believe they're doing the right thing, but that doesn't make it so.

Yeah, but the reason being right or not won`t change the fact that the person sees it as good reason. I`m talking about intention. Also most wars at least start out with public support.

Also, what about independency wars? People gave up their individualitys in order to achieve "freedom". Obeying in the army is just a means to an end.

Ghandi didn't really use much violence to help free India.

I wasn`t saying those are always justified, but rather that people are giving up their individuality for a while in order to achieve it in the longer term.

Anyway, the real assholes are the higher up guys, not the average soldier. Being a martyr is giving your life for a cause you believe in. Doesn't matter if the cause is right or wrong or if it even really exists, the "movement" you make is the same either way, and it's just as hard to do and as "noble".

So are the Nazis (not the superiors, but the regular guys) also martyrs? At the end of the day if you beleived in a cause tha twas wrong, you're just as wrong and as evil as the cause.

Yup. As long as you believe your cause and die for it, it`s hypocritical to not call the guy a martyr. From his point of view he`s made the same sacrifice for the same reason. I mean, we usually only get the winner`s cut of the history afterwards anyway, the case of nazis seems extreme but the validity of a cause is all ultimately subjetive, and your valour isn`t really affected by it.

Take two clones and give them different sets of informations and their beliefs may be completely different. But they aren`t different at all, their corage, their valor, their resolve, their reasoning, etc, are all the same.

I do think you shoudn`t judge people solely on the validity of their beliefs, but on why they got there and how they act on them. Of coure, in practical life you may understand someone`s ways but still have to take some measure or you`ll be fucked.

Anyway, at the end of the day you can`t really be sure what`s right or wrong, all you can do is take your best guess and act on it, and it`s this process of guessing and acting out, not the guess itself, that defines you.

Ha, so much for trying to shorten this, uh?