The Original Internet Political Quiz.

[Farmageddon]

sapphi_snake said:

@Farmageddon:

Only beacause people are like that. The reason is not important, the fact is that you can't assume the world is something it isn't and project the consequecences of a decision (having no army in this cases) on that imaginary world.

But people can change if they want to. It's not some thing part of the natural order of things (like dying) that can't be changed.  I'm not dicouraged by what the world is now, when thinking of what the world should become.

Yeah, sure. We kinda lost track of the context here :P

My point is that what people can do is not as important for deciding between having or not having an army as what people actually will do.

Because things are not that simple, that's the point. You can't just forget about reality and think about your "Plan" on a vacuum or it'll never work, it'd be even worse than doing nothing.

It's not forgeting about reality, it's called doing something. You can't just do nothing and expect things to just magically change. Do you think that that the world just magically changes once in a while? Or is it that some people decide that they won't take things as they are anymore?

I'm telling you, yes, you should do something. But you should plan your actions based on the world they will be made on, not the world you hope them to eventually achieve.

It would do better for the other side for whom it works to walk all over you. People prey on weakness. I know you don't like the idea of that, but it's how it is. If you want to change it, you have to first aknowlodge the problem. Just supposing it isn't there because "it doesn't need to be there" won't work at all.

There's a difference between a problem, and a solution. What I want to change is the solution, not deny that there is a problem.

Yeah, but youa are yet to provide us with a realistic alternative, one that could work in the world today, as it is now.

It's not always that simple, the world isn't a perfect Karma zero sum for each individual.

True, but when you play with fire, you may (probably) get burned.

Sure, nothing to disagree there. But sometimes ypu do have to deal with fire, you don't always have (or know you have) a better option.

You're missing the point. The institution of the army, the fact that it existis, ins't the fact to hate, but the way it's sometimes used. And they kinda do loose their free will :P

Being totally honest, the way the army is used (regardless if for "good" or for "evil") should never be a solution to a conflcit. And all humans have free will, and there's no way to lose that. The fact that there are negative consiquences to dissobeying does not mean that you don't have free will (it's better to be a martyr than to sell your soul).

Point is most people there ARE being martyrs. At least they believe so. And questioning orders and demanding complete information would actually go against the cause they see as right or necessary, even though they'd sure rather not have to be there. So in their minds they forfeit their individuality for the "greater good".

Of course some people won't match this description and are just there t have some sadistica fun, but most do.

Soldiers don't always know precisely what's going on, but we're having this argument up there already.

See above. I think we can cut this line from now on :P