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Forums - General Discussion - Wikileaks + US diplomacy = biggest "diplomatic" storm ever incoming !

 sapphi_snake said:

Kasz, just stop. Your stupid logic isn't goint to protect anyone. Then again, considering how sue happy you Americans are taight to be, I shouldn't be surprised.

And you still haven't answered my question: If you were in bed with your girlfriend sleeping, and it was morning, and your girlfirend woke you up with a sexual act, would you call that rape, and do you think she should go to jail?


I did answer that actually.  In this very thread.  It's sad you've regressed to bigoted ways and actions.  Care to refer to the class what you called the women?  Also perhaps care to refer to the charges he is charged for which includes foricbly holding someone down for sex?  Yet you still want to claim innocence for someone, based on nothing but your own love for his celebrity and damn anyone who accuses him facts be damned.

Some good reading http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/41990.html



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Kasz216 said:

I mean, lets cover EVERY scenario.  Even the far fetched.

1) The UK denies to send him to Sweden.

Winners: Assange & Wikileaks

2) The UK sends him to Sweden, and he's let go.

Winners: Assange & Wikileaks

3) The UK sends him to Sweden and he's put in jail.

Winners: Assange & Wikileaks, even if he really is guilt, too many conspiracy theorests like you wouldn't believe it, so it only helps wikileaks and makes it look like they're persecuted.

4) The UK sends him to Sweeden and he is sent to the US and is found innocnet.

Winners:  Assange and Wikileaks.

5) The UK sends him to Sweeden, and to the US and he is put to death.

Winner: Wikileaks.  They have other members, and now they have a marytr who was killed under a law literally no legal expert said he would be found guilty over.  This is their biggest win yet.

6) He is killed somewhere enroute.

Winner: Wikileaks.  Again, they have their own martyr.

 

Where in this was there the least bit of benefit for the US government or Sweden?  People pretty much ALWAYS side with the accused on rape charges anyway, famous or not.  It's like the WORST crime you could try and frame someone for because even most people who comit the crime get off and get a pat on their back.

 

I have to wonder you list Assange and Wikileaks as the 'winner', you've partially explained what is means to be the winner but you haven't explained what it means to be the loser. And a winner to whom? To every man women and child on the face of this earth? Certainly not to US diplomats (and you I suspect). And I'm not sure which people you are referring to when you say 'people' always side with the accused on rape. Rape is a very serious crime, this is well understood in virtually all circles. Don't know who you've been hanging around with!



Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:

I mean, lets cover EVERY scenario.  Even the far fetched.

1) The UK denies to send him to Sweden.

Winners: Assange & Wikileaks

2) The UK sends him to Sweden, and he's let go.

Winners: Assange & Wikileaks

3) The UK sends him to Sweden and he's put in jail.

Winners: Assange & Wikileaks, even if he really is guilt, too many conspiracy theorests like you wouldn't believe it, so it only helps wikileaks and makes it look like they're persecuted.

4) The UK sends him to Sweeden and he is sent to the US and is found innocnet.

Winners:  Assange and Wikileaks.

5) The UK sends him to Sweeden, and to the US and he is put to death.

Winner: Wikileaks.  They have other members, and now they have a marytr who was killed under a law literally no legal expert said he would be found guilty over.  This is their biggest win yet.

6) He is killed somewhere enroute.

Winner: Wikileaks.  Again, they have their own martyr.

 

Where in this was there the least bit of benefit for the US government or Sweden?  People pretty much ALWAYS side with the accused on rape charges anyway, famous or not.  It's like the WORST crime you could try and frame someone for because even most people who comit the crime get off and get a pat on their back.

 

I have to wonder you list Assange and Wikileaks as the 'winner', you've partially explained what is means to be the winner but you haven't explained what it means to be the loser. And a winner to whom? To every man women and child on the face of this earth? Certainly not to US diplomats (and you I suspect). And I'm not sure which people you are referring to when you say 'people' always side with the accused on rape. Rape is a very serious crime, this is well understood in virtually all circles. Don't know who you've been hanging around with!

Society.  I mean, do you know what the rape conviction rate is in Sweden.  8% of trials that go to court.

How many rape cases does Sweden prosecute?  13%.  What is the false reporting rate of rape?  2%.

So of the best 13% of cases involving rape... only 8% of that 13% are found guilty.

So for every 100 rapes reported... 1 person is found guilty. 

 

Also, umm.... have you missed this entire thread where everybody has jumped on the accusors with absolutely no proof of a conspiracy or even a hinting of it being the case, using every tabloidesque half truth reporting thing they've seen to try and protect an accused rapist?

This pretty much sums it all up.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/41990.html

The article and links it provides pretty much show why most people should be ashamed of themselves.



Also, as for the  losers...

In every case America and Sweden look like losers... because they either look like successful vindicitive dicks... or really incompetant vindicitive dicks.



Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:
Kasz216 said:

As for the actual leaks... this one is pretty hilarious.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11917398

 

It makes the UK government sound like... I dunno. 

 

"we're still super special best friends right?"

 

This is my point though, about stuff that's funny... but there was no real reason to release it.

Hello Kaz. I can see your once again defending democracy hating elite centres of power from criticism.

As for this post, this is one of the many thousands of documents released. I don't think WikiLeaks cherry picked what and what not to release. The fact that the UK state funded BBC decided to focus on this particular story well you have to take it up with the BBC.

Oh and you and I have quite different tastes in humour.

Democracy hating elite centers of power?  Huh?  I'm not even sure who you are referring to here.



Also, actually that's my point.  Wikileaks SHOULD cherry pick what to release and what not to realse.

The majority of this stuff being released serves nothing excpet making private conversations inside governments impossible... which is needed for diplomacy.

 

I mean, imagine a sports league like the NBA trying to carry out trades with other teams if everything they said had to be public at all times.  You'd never get any deals done.

A certain level of secrecy before the deals are public is needed for negotiating... the only kind of closed diplomacy that is bad is deals that STAY secret.

It's irresponsible to just post any and all secret information you gain, even if that information is not a crime.

So what your saying is Wikileaks should do what the corporate media do and impose on itself self censorship? One of the problems with our Governments is there is far too much secrecy and the public are barely involved in the decision making processes of our elected representatives. The contempt for democracy with the latest leaks is very revealing. Wikileaks is a some ways a response to the piss poor job the mainstream business orientated media is doing.


Really?  Let me ask you a couple questions.

How well do you think polticians would be able to talk to each other if their aids weren't aloud to give honest opinions about the other leaders to each other before they met?

How do you think nuclear negotiations  to stop the Iran nuclear weapons program would go if the US government published transcripts of the entire event?

A program they aren't even publicly admitting exists.  Do you think there would be any negotiatons?  Or that we would just be forced to go to war?

Why was it that open negotions couldn't get a peace deal done in WW1, but they got the deal shortly after the deal went quiet?  (Because nobody wanted to give in publicly, privately each could explain away why the harsh terms weren't harsher.)


Private negotions is the ONLY way to get MOST diplomacy done.  What's the difference just so long as the entire result and deal is published?


Public negotions and full transparency would only lead to much more military action needed to be taken, and for negotions to become more partisan and more deadlocked as the people of both nations end up demanding exactly what was initally offered.

I don't really care about what aides say about other political leaders. In fact no one really should if we are being serious. The only people who would care are egotistical politicians and dictatorial monarchs. What I do care about is the blatent contempt for democracy the leaks reveal.

The nuclear negotiations weren't going well way before the current leaks at all so I'm not sure what your point is. And why should we go to war? If the public had a say with a fair free press at the helm with all the facts laid out on the table in front of them without the usual bullshit propaganda and double standards then I very much doubt anyone would want war. In fact even with all the anti Iran rhetoric the world wide public is still anti war.

I'm not sure what your point is about WW1 deals. A time when women couldn't vote in most countries and ethnic minorities were treated as second class citizens. We've moved on from then, we are much more civilised and better informed. And for your information Germany was still very severly punished (which in some ways lead to WWII), Ottomon Empire was broken up and distributed amongst the victors (the effects of which are still being felt today) and the Austrian Hungary empire was no more. So not sure what concessions the victorious Allies made to the defeated Axis powers.

Unlike you I think people should have a say in what deals our elected representatives make. We are not all war mongerers, that's the politicians and the mainstream corporate media.

People are condeming wikileaks specifically for publishing things like how absassadors refer to eladers, and as you said... those leaders do care... and it does effect neogtations.

And no... we havent moved on from there.  If all negotiations were purley open, we'd never make deals... at all... and yes people would be for going to war with Iran.  Right now the only reason people DON'T support bombing Iran is because they expect the negotiations to go well.   If they don't go well?  Guess what will happen?

Guess how impossible negotiations would be, if we had to do it in public where they even refuse to admit what they are doing?

You are naive if you don't think 70-80% of the stuff wikileaks is releasing only makes diplomacy harder, and conflict more likely.

 

Also, you do realize that opinion poles that most people DO favour and attack on Iran if they don't give up their program right?

http://www.zogby.com/news/readnews.cfm?ID=1379

This is without the american people being fully informed about all those extra steps that Iran is doing to make Nuclear weapons like the russian rockets document wikileaks released and this was before we knew they had state of the art advanced power plants, back when we thought they were 1970's era plants.

 

There are plenty of other polls in general that show if Iran refuses to give up it's weapons most people support attacks.

Many people support wikileaks. People are sick to the stomach of our so called leaders making decisions totally detrimental to the well being of the majority. Those most opposed to Wikileaks are those who are in positions of power with a privilaged status and/or in the pockets of powerful business pressure/focus groups. Like I said before I really don't care for what aides have to say about aides. I mean all it's revealed to the majority of the worlds population is American embassy staff don't think too highly of the rest of the world. But to the worlds secret service agencies it's probably nothing new.

The leaks haven't really released much about the negotiations, I'm not sure why the tpic moved that way. We don't really know much about the very top secret stuff. As for negotiations that were done quite publically....don't really know any unless you know of one. And negotiations that have been done in private...pretty much all of them and the US has invaded two countries over the last decade. And your point is.....

And I'm not really talking about being in favour of open negotiations....I'm talking about negotiations that adhere to the whims of the public. I mean take for example a Saudi monarch calling for the bombing of Iran. Is that receptive to what his people want? I very much doubt it and yet Hillary Clinton uses it to rally support against Iran. The sayings of an absolute monarch indeed....

The link to the poll is interesting. For starters it's back in 2007 when Bush/Cheney were still in power and itching to bomb Iran and hence using the media to once again whip the public into a frenzy. But it didn't work quite so well this time around for various reasons such as the Iraq/Afghan quagmire. Second of all even with all the anti Iran rhetoric the majority is slim (52%) and last but not least the wording is ' US Military strike to prevent Iran from building a nuclear weapon' NOT ' US Military strike to prevent Iran from deveoping nuclear power for peaceful civilian energy purposes'.

There are plenty of polls that show the world opinion does not support a military strike against Iran. But I guess in your world the US is the world and the rest of the other world doesn't matter.

As for state of the art power plants as opposed to 1970's era tech when did we discover Iran had state of the art power plants? We know North Korea has revealed a recent state of art nuclear facility but Iran? They have power plants that are of US/German and Russian origin and all well known.



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Yeah... except you know... Iran is building Nuclear weapons.

And 2007 was back was you know... back when everyone hated Bush and was sick of wars.

 

As for when we found out they had state of the art nuclear power plants?  Like 3-4 weeks ago.



Also, you know... you're wrong on that too.

There is world opinon polls that state "Should there be an attack on Iran" in which it is answered now.

If you phrase the question "If negotiations fail to get Iran to stop it's nuclear plans should there be an attack".


The answer is yes.  Most people trust in the negotiations.

The majority of EU states population agree to an attack.



Kasz216 said:

Also, you know... you're wrong on that too.

There is world opinon polls that state "Should there be an attack on Iran" in which it is answered now.

If you phrase the question "If negotiations fail to get Iran to stop it's nuclear plans should there be an attack".


The answer is yes.  Most people trust in the negotiations.

The majority of EU states population agree to an attack.

And why should the USA attack a country that poses no threat to its homeland security?



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trestres said:
Kasz216 said:

Also, you know... you're wrong on that too.

There is world opinon polls that state "Should there be an attack on Iran" in which it is answered now.

If you phrase the question "If negotiations fail to get Iran to stop it's nuclear plans should there be an attack".


The answer is yes.  Most people trust in the negotiations.

The majority of EU states population agree to an attack.

And why should the USA attack a country that poses no threat to its homeland security?

Well for one because nuclear weapons are a threat to homeland security.  More proliferation is a HUGE threat to homeland security, hell there is already a pretty big homeland security threat with people like Pakistan having nuclear weapons.  You don't see the security risk in a place like Iran developing nuclear weapons?  What with their funding of terrorist orgizations, the revolutionary guard, and the fact that they could be taken down at anytime by the population who hates them leading for a free for all for nuclear bombs?   So the answer is, because it already poses a threat to homeland security, and nuclear weapons would be a further threat.

Two, because Iran is a threat to Europe.  The Wikileaks cables pretty much show as much (for those paying attention) due to them buying missles used for nuclear weaponry that are mid-range and could strike and threaten europe.  Most of europe is in NATO, it probably wouldn't even be a US airstrike but a joint US/EU airstrike.



Kasz216 said:
trestres said:
Kasz216 said:

Also, you know... you're wrong on that too.

There is world opinon polls that state "Should there be an attack on Iran" in which it is answered now.

If you phrase the question "If negotiations fail to get Iran to stop it's nuclear plans should there be an attack".


The answer is yes.  Most people trust in the negotiations.

The majority of EU states population agree to an attack.

And why should the USA attack a country that poses no threat to its homeland security?

Well for one because nuclear weapons are a threat to homeland security.  More proliferation is a HUGE threat to homeland security, hell there is already a pretty big homeland security threat with people like Pakistan having nuclear weapons.  You don't see the security risk in a place like Iran developing nuclear weapons?  What with their funding of terrorist orgizations, the revolutionary guard, and the fact that they could be taken down at anytime by the population who hates them leading for a free for all for nuclear bombs?   So the answer is, because it already poses a threat to homeland security, and nuclear weapons would be a further threat.

Two, because Iran is a threat to Europe.  The Wikileaks cables pretty much show as much (for those paying attention) due to them buying missles used for nuclear weaponry that are mid-range and could strike and threaten europe.  Most of europe is in NATO, it probably wouldn't even be a US airstrike but a joint US/EU airstrike.

Let's be realistic, USA poses a bigger threat to any country than viceversa. Reasons for Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam wars? Was it really necessary that the USA had to step in and attack without previous attacks from the other parts? Why is it that the USA is always at war, always with countries that are far away from it's borders and without a solid reason?

Let's get real, if the USA decides to attack Iran for the supposed nuclear weapons, we know it's not the reason, just like with Iraq, where the sole reason was oil, as there were no weapons of mass destruction ever found, not even traces of it. And like Afghanistan, an absurd war in all means.

Imperialism comes to mnd when I see people defending unsustained wars like the one in Iraq. USA is not the World Judge, nor the World Police. And there have been very serious war crimes commited by the US forces but they always get away with it. They should step aside and let the ones "threatened" act.



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