A. In Africa there is a geographical link between Catholic countries and high HIV or AIDS infection rates, as you can see by comparing the two maps provided. (link 1) (link 2).

B. The Catholic church has stated, repeatedly, that condoms don't work and that they can even make the AIDS pandemic worse, which is grossly untrue (source). An extract from the source I've quoted.

"The church opposes any kind of contraception because it claims it breaks the link between sex and procreation - a position Pope John Paul II has fought to defend. In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have HIV - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability.

The archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, said: "Aids... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms." Sex and the Holy City includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choirmaster against using condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America."

The thing is I wouldn't mind if the Catholic church said "We don't mind condoms, but we recommend abstinence". But no, they go out of their way to actually spread the lie that condoms increase the risk of AIDS.

C. Of course I thing that non government bodies and the UN have their own agenda, but they aren't spreading the lie that condoms lead to AIDS. If it was the UN spreading the lie that condoms cause AIDS, I'm sure that I would be calling them out on their actions right now and not the Catholic church. I'll give blame where I think blame is due, and I see it due for the Catholic church here. Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

D. There may be teenagers that don't use condoms, but the percentage of teenagers in the USA who don't use a condom is much high than that of sub Saharan Africa. You can see that by looking at this proportional map of condom use (larger countries represent larger condom use) (source).

As you can see, condom use in sub Saharan Africa is far lower than almost any other area of the world. Yes, USA teenagers occasionally don't use condoms, but the actual amount that don't is small, so it doesn't cause many problems. In sub Saharan Africa on the other hand barely anyone uses condoms and that can cause a big problem.

E. I'm sure it does contribute greatly, as I said the Catholic churches stance on Condoms was one of the main reasons, not the only reason. I don't support the gangs for furthering the spread of disease, I would protest against their recklessness in the spread of AIDS as much as I would against the Catholic church. the thing is, the catholic church is a respected organisation and not a gang, they should have more responsibility.

I don't have enough time to answer your entire post I'm afraid, so I may come back to the rest later.

A. Covered it with the EDIT part on my previous post.

B. Yeah, there are a lot of priests (and bishops) out there, who make wrong claims. That doesnt help at all.

C. Im talking about the power of persusasion. The Church is not the only force in Africa preaching something. Im not talking about what they are preaching. But I see your point.

D. "There may be teenagers that don't use condoms, but the percentage of teenagers in the USA who don't use a condom is much high than that of sub Saharan Africa"

Arent you contradicting yourself? Cause from what you said, US has less people using condoms and has lower AIDS infection rate than Africa.

E. Same as C. Im saying that if if the Church were to blame (which I dont agree) it wouldnt be the only one. So dont lay it all at her doorstep.

Now, there is the part that I have talked about before.The Church (at least officially - sorry for the bad priests out there) preaches a "package deal".

I dont want to get into catholic theology here because thats not the point of the thread, but why the Church is against is a big part of its moral teachings.

It sees sex as being more than simply satisfying an urge. It believes that love and sex go together.That it should be held to a higher standard. As for procreation, is not that this is the only point of sex, its more that its a natural part of the act, and it shouldnt be denied artificially.

Like all religious changes over the course of time, it's not bout religion.  It's about PR and keeping more sheep in YOUR flock so that the church leaders have power and the wealth to use that power.  Organized religion, and perhaps the Catholic Church most of all, is the biggest scam in human history.  It's like a giant Ponzi scheme.

A. Fair enough, I was rushing earlier so I didn't really cover the edit I'm afraid. Also it was worth cementing my position anyway lol.

B. The thing is it's not just occasional wrong claims, it's an established set of lies that they are systematically telling people. They aren't just a bunch of one off cases, it's organised lying.

C. Fair enough, I see your point, and yes, the UN or other bodies could step in. But at the core of my argument it still doesn't change the fact that one of the most powerful organisations in that part of the world have been convincing people that condoms increase the risk of AIDS.

D. Oops, sorry, I got that the wrong way round, I meant lower. The bit I wrote after the map clarified my position that condom use in sub Saharan Africa is lower.

E. They do bare a lot of the blame though. I would say that even though they aren't the only only ones to blame, they are the main ones. They've actively turned using condoms into a social stigma.

While condoms are of great help in preventing the spread of AIDS, they are not 100% certain to work, which can produce behaviors that are the root cause of the AIDS crisis (moral hazards). We now have epidemics of STDs that wasn't as present in the past, in part due to a liberated attitude that came about as a result of birth control.  I believe the Catholic Church says, first and foremost, that sex needs to be in a loving relationship between two people, as part of a larger relationship that covers all.  Things needed for the preservation of this relationship are more than sex.  What we have now is a recreational attitude toward sex, where people do one night stands, and a lot of suffering about.  In this, is a LOT of STDs. 

What can see here is a more pragmatic attitude towards the use of birth control.  A need to emphasize what is idea doesn't have to mean that you don't accomodate for the less than ideal, if the lack of accomodating makes a crisis situation far worse.

Don't know but I sure as hell would have loved to have been there!

What you say is organised lying is just mismanagement. This is not the only area where the leaders of the Church let priests and bishops say wrong things.

In Brazil, there are a lot of priests who are into Liberation Theology, something that the Pope has spoken several times against.

The problem is that the Church is poorly administrated. People think that the Church is this centralized government that controls thing closely, but thats far from the truth.

The Church should find better priests and bishops to take care of this problem, but like other things, it will take a while before it happens.

Thanks for the debate though.

Almost 7 billion people now, the Pope is not retarded, religion needs to change with time too, or it's just going to become unwanted burden.

The church's stance on contraception is perfectly fine when coupled with their stance on sex outside of marriage.

One has to wonder why people are forgoing condoms at the request of the church, yet aren't forgoing sex.  Is that the church's fault?

Edit:

Ah, it seems this has already been adressed.  You say "people should have the right to have sex, whether it be recreational or for procreation", but this is something the church obviously disagrees with, and as an extension of this, the obviously would not allow contraception.

If anything, you should be attacking their stance on sex in general, not their stance on contraception in particular.

Edit 2:

Ah, it seems the church's activity in south africa likely does have a direct and negative impact on the situation.  I better see where you're coming from.

Ideologically, however, I don't see much issue with the church's view.

They're against contraception used by married couples also. A lot of people in Africa get AIDS from their spouse.

Plus, their stance would force  married couples to only have sex when they want to concieve a child (as people can't afford to pop up a kid every year, and probably don't want to either). The Catholic Church wants to intrude too much in people's personal lives (along with all other Christian denominations).