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pizzahut451 said:
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You dont see the point. A sperm cant become a human being.I never denied sperm is a living being. But a fetus is developing into a human being and will eventually become one. So if you kill a fetus, you killed a future human being. A sperm cant become a human inside a man. By killing the fetus, you are taking away its chance to becoma a human and have a good life.

Many actions we take cause potential future human beings to exist or not exist. For example, going to work every day.

If the fetus is not human and can't suffer, if it is functionally equivalent to a plant in that way, then it abortion does no harm.

Do you believe there are any situations where abortion is allowed?



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Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:
Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:
Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:
Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:

whats the diffrence between an abortion and murder again?


The fetus isn't a human being.


Its a living being that will later become a human, with real personality and feelings. So a true murder happens only when a human is murderd?

Sperm is also a living being by the same standards.  You're committing homicide everytime you wank and everytime a woman has a period by that logic.


Sperm cannot become a huamn being without sexual intercourse. A fetus, however, is a future human being that will grown into alive human baby and later in adult human with personality. A sperm cant grow into anything human.

But the DNA is already present in the sperm, the sperm is a living cell.  The fact that it has DNA and is a living cell means that it's just as alive as an egg that a sperm cell has fertilized which also has DNA and is a living cell.  Your argument of life starting at conception doesn't make much sense because the embryo hasn't even developed a brain yet much less a heart, liver, or lungs.  It doesn't feel or think so it doesn't have any form of sentience and it doesn't even have any organs beyond the organelles in it's cells.

You dont see the point. A sperm cant become a human being.I never denied sperm is a living being. But a fetus is developing into a human being and will eventually become one. So if you kill a fetus, you killed a future human being. A sperm cant become a human inside a man. By killing the fetus, you are taking away its chance to becoma a human and have a good life.


No, I saw what you were saying I just didn't agree with it.  You see your argument is basiclly saying that a seed is equivalent to what it will become, this argument is false from the start.  A seed is not an apple tree, and just as destroying seeds is not deforestatio halting the fertilization process is not murder of a human being, it's the prevention of the creation of one.  There is a very distinct difference between halting construction and destruction of a completed building.


A seed is not an apple tree but it will become one, and you cant use examples like buildings and trees to prove that stopping a living future human being from having a life. Nobody should have that right. The mother should have though of her before getting pregnant.

Murder-Taking away someones life

Abortion-Taking aways someone's chances of life (or taking away someone's life in advance)

Yeah, BIG fucking diffrence



Soleron said:
pizzahut451 said:
...

You dont see the point. A sperm cant become a human being.I never denied sperm is a living being. But a fetus is developing into a human being and will eventually become one. So if you kill a fetus, you killed a future human being. A sperm cant become a human inside a man. By killing the fetus, you are taking away its chance to becoma a human and have a good life.

Many actions we take cause potential future human beings to exist or not exist. For example, going to work every day.

If the fetus is not human and can't suffer, if it is functionally equivalent to a plant in that way, then it abortion does no harm.

Do you believe there are any situations where abortion is allowed?


Fetus IS A FUTURE human. A human like you and me. By killing the fetus you are taking away its life and thus his chnace (and RIGHT) to a human life.

Yes i do believe that there are situations where abortion is allowed. Like the one in the video in the OP.



I pulled out while my wife was ovulating. I'm a murderer. I mean sure my sperm couldn't have been a person, and her egg couldn't have been a person, but together they could have been a doctor and a fucking ruined it by splooging all over our sheets. Or did I?

I hate it when people take something morally grey and try to make it obvious black and white. People really need to stop with the binary thinking. I wouldn't hesitate to give a cheeseburger to a starving child to save their life, but I would eat at MCdonalds rather than donate that money to a charity to feed and educate african children. I would find it irresponsible for a woman to get drunk, laid, pregnant and then abort it because it's inconvenient, but not in the least for a 14 year old raped by her father. Despite what religious authorities teach us, morality is not binary. It's complex and gradient. Consequentialism is hard and unpredictable, virtue ethics less so, but black and white ethics by concrete rules is just damn lazy, irresponsible and unempathetic.

That man in the video is a hero. The problem with christians is they are so unlike their christ (thank you ghandi). I doubt if the Jesus presented in the gospels would be standing outside an abortion clinic with pictures of dead fetuses. The Jesus that these women supposedly represent was a philosopher that balked at the ridiculous rules of his religious leaders and carved out a new moral code for his time, instilling a virtue ethic just like many other great thinkers had. He thought consequentially, gave a series of virtues based on his reasoning, and in time religious leaders simplified it into binary good/bad thinking so the masses didn't have to go through the mess of thinking for themselves when various situations came up. Much like those women there aren't actually thinking, they are just following a prescribed morality by numbers that is gross and cruel.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

pizzahut451 said:

seed is not an apple tree but it will become one, and you cant use examples like buildings and trees to prove that stopping a living future human being from having a life.

 

That sentence didn't make any sense.  And you have to make a deeper argument then 'you can't do that' why is an embryo any different then a seed that has begun to germinate?

Nobody should have that right. The mother should have though of her before getting pregnant.

Typical to always blame the mother, not like the male has any responsibility.

Murder-Taking away someones life

Murder-ending the life of a human being and you have made no counter-argument to the fact that an embryo does not equate to a human

Abortion-Taking aways someone's chances of life (or taking away someone's life in advance)

Abortion-stopping the development cycle of a fertilized cell

You do the same thing every time you expell semen, you have taken away a certain someones chances at life, the chance that one of those sperm and any egg in the world could have become, there is no difference.

Yeah, BIG fucking diffrence





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Smashed said:

This is the greatest video on youtube. This man is a hero.

 

Fuck abortion protestors, pathetic waste of human beings that should have been aborted themselves. There they are trying to promote Christianity, they are doing the complete opposite on what Christianity is all about. Ignorant fucks.

I salute you sir.



The_vagabond7 said:

I pulled out while my wife was ovulating. I'm a murderer. I mean sure my sperm couldn't have been a person, and her egg couldn't have been a person, but together they could have been a doctor and a fucking ruined it by splooging all over our sheets. Or did I?

I hate it when people take something morally grey and try to make it obvious black and white. People really need to stop with the binary thinking. I wouldn't hesitate to give a cheeseburger to a starving child to save their life, but I would eat at MCdonalds rather than donate that money to a charity to feed and educate african children. I would find it irresponsible for a woman to get drunk, laid, pregnant and then abort it because it's inconvenient, but not in the least for a 14 year old raped by her father. Despite what religious authorities teach us, morality is not binary. It's complex and gradient. Consequentialism is hard and unpredictable, virtue ethics less so, but black and white ethics by concrete rules is just damn lazy, irresponsible and unempathetic.

That man in the video is a hero. The problem with christians is they are so unlike their christ (thank you ghandi). I doubt if the Jesus presented in the gospels would be standing outside an abortion clinic with pictures of dead fetuses. The Jesus that these women supposedly represent was a philosopher that balked at the ridiculous rules of his religious leaders and carved out a new moral code for his time, instilling a virtue ethic just like many other great thinkers had. He thought consequentially, gave a series of virtues based on his reasoning, and in time religious leaders simplified it into binary good/bad thinking so the masses didn't have to go through the mess of thinking for themselves when various situations came up. Much like those women there aren't actually thinking, they are just following a prescribed morality by numbers that is gross and cruel.


And this is why you are one of my favourite posters in here. Fantastic post!



Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:

seed is not an apple tree but it will become one, and you cant use examples like buildings and trees to prove that stopping a living future human being from having a life.

 

That sentence didn't make any sense.  And you have to make a deeper argument then 'you can't do that' why is an embryo any different then a seed that has begun to germinate?

Nobody should have that right. The mother should have though of her before getting pregnant.

Typical to always blame the mother, not like the male has any responsibility.

Murder-Taking away someones life

Murder-ending the life of a human being and you have made no counter-argument to the fact that an embryo does not equate to a human

Abortion-Taking aways someone's chances of life (or taking away someone's life in advance)

Abortion-stopping the development cycle of a fertilized cell

You do the same thing every time you expell semen, you have taken away a certain someones chances at life, the chance that one of those sperm and any egg in the world could have become, there is no difference.

Yeah, BIG fucking diffrence




Embriyo will become a human being in 3 months, a seed can only become a plant.

 

Where did I say that the father/male shouldnt have any responsibility???

 

Ending a life=Taking away someones life. Diffrent definition, same point. And i told you millions of times before that I persoanlly consider an embriyo a future human being, (it has a fucking human DNA) and that in no more than 3-4 months it will become a real human.

 

So stopping someone from having a life is very diffrent than stopping someonne from living a life???

 

And stop using that stupid semen argument. Even when you ejaculite inside a women only 1 out of 300 million semens get to the egg, and there is nothing you can do about it, so you're not taking aways anyone's chances of life. Its the law of nature. The diffrence between that and abortion is, that ejaculation and the death of millions of semens ARE NATURAL and there is nothing natural about abortion, because you're no longer killing just some semen but a living being with a human DNA, that will soon become a true human baby.



pizzahut451 said:


Embriyo will become a human being in 3 months, a seed can only become a plant.

It's called an analogy.  Yes a tree seed will become a tree and a human seed will become a human, so the only property different between them is where they'll end up.  Both forms of seed do not equate it's end result, you have not refuted this point.

Where did I say that the father/male shouldnt have any responsibility???

You didn't but you implied that it was the mother's fault by saying that "The mother  should have thought of it before getting pregnant"

Ending a life=Taking away someones life. Diffrent definition, same point. And i told you millions of times before that I persoanlly consider an embriyo a future human being, (it has a fucking human DNA) and that in no more than 3-4 months it will become a real human.

I'm really having trouble understanding your sentence structure.  Is english a second language to you?  Ending a life=taking away someones life, yeah those are two different ways to say the same thing, but neither has a different definition.  But I digress, the issue at hand is not your confusing way of talking.  But your central argument, that an embryo is equivalent to a fully formed human who has gone through the entire developmental cycle of embryogenisis because of the fact that it contains human DNA has already been proven invalid.  Sperm and eggs both also contain human DNA as was already stated, so what's the difference between ejaculating on the floor and removing an embryo from the uterus before it becomes human?

So stopping someone from having a life is very diffrent than stopping someonne from living a life???

 

And stop using that stupid semen argument. Even when you ejaculite inside a women only 1 out of 300 million semens get to the egg, and there is nothing you can do about it, so you're not taking aways anyone's chances of life.

Actually by your standards you are.  You see your argument rests on the fact that human DNA is equivalent to a human being.  But since sperm contain human DNA and many of them die as a result of natural biological processes this argument is weak.  Every one of those sperm under other conditions (it's mostly luck, but also the strength of the outer wall of the egg and environmental factors) could have impregnated that egg and created a different person in the future.  If preventing the life of a possible human being is murder then everytime you have sex it's murder, everytime you wank off its murder, everytime you don't it's murder anyways because your sperm will simply die off inside you if not used and that prevents the formation of a possible human being, which by your standards is murder.

 

Its the law of nature. The diffrence between that and abortion is, that ejaculation and the death of millions of semens ARE NATURAL and there is nothing natural about abortion,

Ah, the weakest argument of all 'it isn't natural'  Tell me what you define as nature, if a natural occurence is rooted in nature then it's a critical term to define in this argument.  In reality everything is natural, because we are part of nature.  You might believe that humanity is somehow separate from nature be we are not.  We are just an intelligent animal on the planet earth.  Did you know that you can use the herb Pennyroyal as well as other herbs to cause an abortion?  Even if  you deny the logical conclusion and deem natural as being things not created by humans abortion is completely natural.

 

because you're no longer killing just some semen but a living being with a human DNA, that will soon become a true human baby

Sperm have human DNA, semen is just the delivery fluid.





Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:


Embriyo will become a human being in 3 months, a seed can only become a plant.

It's called an analogy.  Yes a tree seed will become a tree and a human seed will become a human, so the only property different between them is where they'll end up.  Both forms of seed do not equate it's end result, you have not refuted this point.

Where did I say that the father/male shouldnt have any responsibility???

You didn't but you implied that it was the mother's fault by saying that "The mother  should have thought of it before getting pregnant"

Ending a life=Taking away someones life. Diffrent definition, same point. And i told you millions of times before that I persoanlly consider an embriyo a future human being, (it has a fucking human DNA) and that in no more than 3-4 months it will become a real human.

I'm really having trouble understanding your sentence structure.  Is english a second language to you?  Ending a life=taking away someones life, yeah those are two different ways to say the same thing, but neither has a different definition.  But I digress, the issue at hand is not your confusing way of talking.  But your central argument, that an embryo is equivalent to a fully formed human who has gone through the entire developmental cycle of embryogenisis because of the fact that it contains human DNA has already been proven invalid.  Sperm and eggs both also contain human DNA as was already stated, so what's the difference between ejaculating on the floor and removing an embryo from the uterus before it becomes human?

So stopping someone from having a life is very diffrent than stopping someonne from living a life???

 

And stop using that stupid semen argument. Even when you ejaculite inside a women only 1 out of 300 million semens get to the egg, and there is nothing you can do about it, so you're not taking aways anyone's chances of life.

Actually by your standards you are.  You see your argument rests on the fact that human DNA is equivalent to a human being.  But since sperm contain human DNA and many of them die as a result of natural biological processes this argument is weak.  Every one of those sperm under other conditions (it's mostly luck, but also the strength of the outer wall of the egg and environmental factors) could have impregnated that egg and created a different person in the future.  If preventing the life of a possible human being is murder then everytime you have sex it's murder, everytime you wank off its murder, everytime you don't it's murder anyways because your sperm will simply die off inside you if not used and that prevents the formation of a possible human being, which by your standards is murder.

 

Its the law of nature. The diffrence between that and abortion is, that ejaculation and the death of millions of semens ARE NATURAL and there is nothing natural about abortion,

Ah, the weakest argument of all 'it isn't natural'  Tell me what you define as nature, if a natural occurence is rooted in nature then it's a critical term to define in this argument.  In reality everything is natural, because we are part of nature.  You might believe that humanity is somehow separate from nature be we are not.  We are just an intelligent animal on the planet earth.  Did you know that you can use the herb Pennyroyal as well as other herbs to cause an abortion?  Even if  you deny the logical conclusion and deem natural as being things not created by humans abortion is completely natural.

 

because you're no longer killing just some semen but a living being with a human DNA, that will soon become a true human baby

Sperm have human DNA, semen is just the delivery fluid.




Lokk, we're just going in circles here, i already said millions of times already why i see abortion as a murder, and you keep repeating your arguments and i keep repeating mine. Since you're not gonna change my opinnion adn im not gonna change yours, im gonna save myself some times and end this crap here