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Rath said:
tehsage said:
zgamer5 said:

abortion is the choice of the girl.

no offense to anyone but many teen age girls and boys are retarted, many girls will get knocked up even if they didnt intend to.

people should have a choice. humans are created by us, not by god, we have a choice.


What about the unborn child? What about their choice? Tell me that a child isn't a person and I'll agree with you. Until then, I don't.

I would say that the fetus isn't a person.

I feel there is more required to be a person than to have a set of human DNA and to technically be living. As with a person who is brain dead to me a fetus does not qualify for 'personhood'. My personal opinion is that the minimum requirement for being a person is when you have some sort of meaningful brain activity.

Of course other people have different opinions on this matter - a very common one is religious people who believe in souls and believe a fetus gets its soul at conception. I can understand these people being against abortion however I do not believe they have the right to stop other people who do not share their beliefs from getting abortions.

I absolutely agree with this.

And since the soul is also defined as being the concious part of the human, shouldn't a fetus get its soul first when it becomes councious even when following the religious definition?



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tehsage said:


I appreciate that. I have some work I should be doing. We shall continue our discussion tonight, yes?


Sorry I took so long to respond, I got really busy for a while and then I felt like there wasn't a point because it had been so long but I had already started writing something, I didn't finish it.  It was intended to be a long answer but here it is anyways, I'll just summarize the rest :

 

Alright so when does life begin?

Religious groups say at conception, some people think it's a birth, but most people believe it starts at some point in the pregnancy cycle.  This question is very difficult to answer because it is not simply a question of biology but also a philosophical one.   Let us examine the biological side first.



In Viviparous animals like humans the egg or ovum is fertilized inside the body (ie we don't lay eggs, they stay inside) and the embryo develops inside the uterus.  The human egg is one of the biggest cells in the body and is visible without a microscope.  This cell has a nucleolus which holds and transcribes rRNA within the nucleus, surrounding that is the cytoplasm which is the encased by the zona pellucida and the corona radiata.  The sperm cell has a head which houses the nucleus, a connecting piece which holds the mitochondria, and the tail and the end piece.

Now when you look at any plant or animal cell do you think it is alive?  The standard classification is that yes these cells are alive.  They have organelles and survival processes, however not sentient they are alive.

When the sperm cell fertilizes an egg they together become the embryo the earliest stage of human development.  Then the cells within the zygote begin to multiply, this is called cleavage.  At least four divisions take place and then the cell becomes what is called a morula, it is simply a solid ball of cells (not expanding at all in size.) The next stage is the Blastula in which all these cells are surrounding a fluid known as the blastocoel. The blastula cells then begin to tighten and align with one another and form the blastocyst. This takes place 5 days after fertilization. This all takes place within the very first week, so at this point is it anymore alive then it was before? 

Well both the sperm and the egg were living cells, and now they've become more living cells, but there still isn't any sign of sentience.  Abortion is possible in this stage and to do so would be akin to cutting of a piece of excess skin cells, the only difference is that skin cells aren't on the path to become something greater then they already are.  But back to embryogenisis.

 

Now this is when I stopped writing because it was taking too long and I got lazy so for the rest of the argument I'll just say this, defining when a person is truly a living human being is the central point of this debate and I believe it cannot happen at any point before 20 weeks after conception.  Any earlier than this and the fetus not only does not have a developed thalamus but the pineal gland has not migrated into the brain yet and the gender is not even set.  So late term abortions are the only instance in which I think a human is being killed.  But there are still instances in which an abortion is necessary in the late term, such as health risks to the baby or the mother.



whats the diffrence between an abortion and murder again?



pizzahut451 said:

whats the diffrence between an abortion and murder again?


The fetus isn't a human being.



Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:

whats the diffrence between an abortion and murder again?


The fetus isn't a human being.


Its a living being that will later become a human, with real personality and feelings. So a true murder happens only when a human is murderd?



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pizzahut451 said:
Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:

whats the diffrence between an abortion and murder again?


The fetus isn't a human being.


Its a living being that will later become a human, with real personality and feelings. So a true murder happens only when a human is murderd?

Sperm is also a living being by the same standards.  You're committing homicide everytime you wank and everytime a woman has a period by that logic.



Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:
Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:

whats the diffrence between an abortion and murder again?


The fetus isn't a human being.


Its a living being that will later become a human, with real personality and feelings. So a true murder happens only when a human is murderd?

Sperm is also a living being by the same standards.  You're committing homicide everytime you wank and everytime a woman has a period by that logic.


Sperm cannot become a huamn being without sexual intercourse. A fetus, however, is a future human being that will grown into alive human baby and later in adult human with personality. A sperm cant grow into anything human.



pizzahut451 said:
Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:
Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:

whats the diffrence between an abortion and murder again?


The fetus isn't a human being.


Its a living being that will later become a human, with real personality and feelings. So a true murder happens only when a human is murderd?

Sperm is also a living being by the same standards.  You're committing homicide everytime you wank and everytime a woman has a period by that logic.


Sperm cannot become a huamn being without sexual intercourse. A fetus, however, is a future human being that will grown into alive human baby and later in adult human with personality. A sperm cant grow into anything human.

But the DNA is already present in the sperm, the sperm is a living cell.  The fact that it has DNA and is a living cell means that it's just as alive as an egg that a sperm cell has fertilized which also has DNA and is a living cell.  Your argument of life starting at conception doesn't make much sense because the embryo hasn't even developed a brain yet much less a heart, liver, or lungs.  It doesn't feel or think so it doesn't have any form of sentience and it doesn't even have any organs beyond the organelles in it's cells.



Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:
Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:
Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:

whats the diffrence between an abortion and murder again?


The fetus isn't a human being.


Its a living being that will later become a human, with real personality and feelings. So a true murder happens only when a human is murderd?

Sperm is also a living being by the same standards.  You're committing homicide everytime you wank and everytime a woman has a period by that logic.


Sperm cannot become a huamn being without sexual intercourse. A fetus, however, is a future human being that will grown into alive human baby and later in adult human with personality. A sperm cant grow into anything human.

But the DNA is already present in the sperm, the sperm is a living cell.  The fact that it has DNA and is a living cell means that it's just as alive as an egg that a sperm cell has fertilized which also has DNA and is a living cell.  Your argument of life starting at conception doesn't make much sense because the embryo hasn't even developed a brain yet much less a heart, liver, or lungs.  It doesn't feel or think so it doesn't have any form of sentience and it doesn't even have any organs beyond the organelles in it's cells.

You dont see the point. A sperm cant become a human being.I never denied sperm is a living being. But a fetus is developing into a human being and will eventually become one. So if you kill a fetus, you killed a future human being. A sperm cant become a human inside a man. By killing the fetus, you are taking away its chance to becoma a human and have a good life.



pizzahut451 said:
Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:
Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:
Armads said:
pizzahut451 said:

whats the diffrence between an abortion and murder again?


The fetus isn't a human being.


Its a living being that will later become a human, with real personality and feelings. So a true murder happens only when a human is murderd?

Sperm is also a living being by the same standards.  You're committing homicide everytime you wank and everytime a woman has a period by that logic.


Sperm cannot become a huamn being without sexual intercourse. A fetus, however, is a future human being that will grown into alive human baby and later in adult human with personality. A sperm cant grow into anything human.

But the DNA is already present in the sperm, the sperm is a living cell.  The fact that it has DNA and is a living cell means that it's just as alive as an egg that a sperm cell has fertilized which also has DNA and is a living cell.  Your argument of life starting at conception doesn't make much sense because the embryo hasn't even developed a brain yet much less a heart, liver, or lungs.  It doesn't feel or think so it doesn't have any form of sentience and it doesn't even have any organs beyond the organelles in it's cells.

You dont see the point. A sperm cant become a human being.I never denied sperm is a living being. But a fetus is developing into a human being and will eventually become one. So if you kill a fetus, you killed a future human being. A sperm cant become a human inside a man. By killing the fetus, you are taking away its chance to becoma a human and have a good life.


No, I saw what you were saying I just didn't agree with it.  You see your argument is basiclly saying that a seed is equivalent to what it will become, this argument is false from the start.  A seed is not an apple tree, and just as destroying seeds is not deforestatio halting the fertilization process is not murder of a human being, it's the prevention of the creation of one.  There is a very distinct difference between halting construction and destruction of a completed building.