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Forums - Sony Discussion - Has the Playstation Move's apparent success made people go crazy?

M.U.G.E.N on 24 October 2010
thismeintiel said:
starcraft said:

The Wii is not currently, and has not been for sometime, a measure of success.  The PS3 is currently DOWN year on year, right after the second most major release of the year for the console (assuming of course GT5 does launch this year. 

You ask me for evidence of Sony's exact expectations, but I am not the thread creator, I am not the person in this debate with whom the burden of proof resides.  I could easily have created a thread, equally as speculative and malicious as this one, that implies anyone who genuinely believes Move did as well as it should have is crazy.

We have complete different reads on the "HD Motion War."  A casual glance through the Sony forums for the last six months highlights an enormous amount of Kinect skepticism.  I myself remain highly skeptical of Kinect.  I have found articles where Sony vaguely alludes to possibly accelerating production.

As you're in the pro-OP camp, and therefore bare the burden of proof, can you perhaps point me to an article where Sony says anything remotely along the lines of "we're going to produce more of Move than we anticipated this year, because our shipments are selling out?"  Not, "we're going to accelerate production, which we were always going to do because it's coming up to Christmas, but for publicity purposes it sounds better if I don't say this last bit."

You don't get the rules of debate, do you?  The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.  Otherwise you could accuse anyone of commiting any crime, and instead of you having to prove they commited that crime, the accused go to jail until he can prove he didn't do it.  Doesn't make sense, does it.  You made the accusation that Sony didn't meet their expectations with Move, so the burden of proof is upon you to show that to be the case.  Supporters have already quoted Sony as saying they feel Move will be a slow burner.  Then there's the fact that Move was sold out at retail stores and online stores within a week or 2 of Moves launch, clearly from low initial shipments.  So, where is your proof?

And you asked me to show you where you referenced Pachter's initial estimate, which I bolded for you, yet you ignored it.  I mean you're basing half of your argument on Pachter's first estimate, and even though he retracted it by saying he was lowballing his numbers and gave a new estimate, you choose to ignore it.  I just wish I knew how that works.  Faced with a hard fact like that, I'd have to concede to the other side.

You work for Darth Vader....prove me wrong



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thismeintiel on 24 October 2010
Seece said:
Fumanchu said:

I just wanted to bring up the possibility of Sony reporting their 'shipped' figures differently.  I have seen it discussed in other sales threads and it definitely helps to explain the discrepancy between their shipped totals and VGChartz sell-through numbers.  It's the theory that Sony count back-orders on their books before shipping to retailers.  Of course I don't think anyone that doesn't work at Sony will be able to confirm or deny this, but when you see reasoning to argue towards higher sell-through data such as; "they've shipped 2.5 million units and I can't find one at my local retailer" I always think of this as a possibility.      

Don't open another can of worms, you'll get your head bitten off bow down and worship the glorious Move sales without question!!!

Lol, you don't have to be a jerk about it.

Anyway, to answer your question Fumanchu, I believe that is how Sony used to report numbers during the PS1 & PS2 gens.  I'm almost 100% that they have switched to the industry standard (shipped to retailers) in 2006 or 2007.

@ nightsurge

You're right.  I'll fix that in a moment.



 

IMU1808 on 24 October 2010

So many oversized posts... Stop the quoting!!



IMU1808 on 24 October 2010
Fumanchu said:

I just wanted to bring up the possibility of Sony reporting their 'shipped' figures differently.  I have seen it discussed in other sales threads and it definitely helps to explain the discrepancy between their shipped totals and VGChartz sell-through numbers.  It's the theory that Sony count back-orders on their books before shipping to retailers.  Of course I don't think anyone that doesn't work at Sony will be able to confirm or deny this, but when you see reasoning to argue towards higher sell-through data such as; "they've shipped 2.5 million units and I can't find one at my local retailer" I always think of this as a possibility.      


... What's next? They're counting POSSIBLE FUTURE ORDERS?



thismeintiel on 24 October 2010
M.U.G.E.N said:
thismeintiel said:
starcraft said:

The Wii is not currently, and has not been for sometime, a measure of success.  The PS3 is currently DOWN year on year, right after the second most major release of the year for the console (assuming of course GT5 does launch this year. 

You ask me for evidence of Sony's exact expectations, but I am not the thread creator, I am not the person in this debate with whom the burden of proof resides.  I could easily have created a thread, equally as speculative and malicious as this one, that implies anyone who genuinely believes Move did as well as it should have is crazy.

We have complete different reads on the "HD Motion War."  A casual glance through the Sony forums for the last six months highlights an enormous amount of Kinect skepticism.  I myself remain highly skeptical of Kinect.  I have found articles where Sony vaguely alludes to possibly accelerating production.

As you're in the pro-OP camp, and therefore bare the burden of proof, can you perhaps point me to an article where Sony says anything remotely along the lines of "we're going to produce more of Move than we anticipated this year, because our shipments are selling out?"  Not, "we're going to accelerate production, which we were always going to do because it's coming up to Christmas, but for publicity purposes it sounds better if I don't say this last bit."

You don't get the rules of debate, do you?  The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.  Otherwise you could accuse anyone of commiting any crime, and instead of you having to prove they commited that crime, the accused go to jail until he can prove he didn't do it.  Doesn't make sense, does it.  You made the accusation that Sony didn't meet their expectations with Move, so the burden of proof is upon you to show that to be the case.  Supporters have already quoted Sony as saying they feel Move will be a slow burner.  Then there's the fact that Move was sold out at retail stores and online stores within a week or 2 of Moves launch, clearly from low initial shipments.  So, where is your proof?

And you asked me to show you where you referenced Pachter's initial estimate, which I bolded for you, yet you ignored it.  I mean you're basing half of your argument on Pachter's first estimate, and even though he retracted it by saying he was lowballing his numbers and gave a new estimate, you choose to ignore it.  I just wish I knew how that works.  Faced with a hard fact like that, I'd have to concede to the other side.

You work for Darth Vader....prove me wrong

Ah, you got me.

Little do people know, The Force Unleashed was based on my life.



 

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Fumanchu on 24 October 2010
thismeintiel said:
Seece said:
Fumanchu said:

I just wanted to bring up the possibility of Sony reporting their 'shipped' figures differently.  I have seen it discussed in other sales threads and it definitely helps to explain the discrepancy between their shipped totals and VGChartz sell-through numbers.  It's the theory that Sony count back-orders on their books before shipping to retailers.  Of course I don't think anyone that doesn't work at Sony will be able to confirm or deny this, but when you see reasoning to argue towards higher sell-through data such as; "they've shipped 2.5 million units and I can't find one at my local retailer" I always think of this as a possibility.      

Don't open another can of worms, you'll get your head bitten off bow down and worship the glorious Move sales without question!!!

Lol, you don't have to be a jerk about it.

Anyway, to answer your question Fumanchu, I believe that is how Sony used to report numbers during the PS1 & PS2 gens.  I'm almost 100% that they have switched to the industry standard (shipped to retailers) in 2006 or 2007.

@ nightsurge

You're right.  I'll fix that in a moment.

Thank you for clearing that up, like I said I didn't think of this theory myself - I had simply seen it posted quite a few times in different sales threads. 

Well this is more troubling for VGChartz numbers then I guess? The bigger Sony discrepancies are simply 'unknowns' then? i.e. untrackable regions?



Alby_da_Wolf on 25 October 2010

@OP:

Good points, and I'd add also that hardcore gamers should be happy about success of both WM Plus and PS Move, as they are motion controls suitable also for hardcore games, not only for casual ones. What WiiMote lacked for some hardcore uses, both WM Plus and PS move (and now WiiMote Plus too) deliver. Thanks to them, also hardcore gaming will be able to benefit from motion control, instead of risking to be left behind.



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billsalias on 25 October 2010
starcraft said:
steverhcp02 said:
starcraft said:
steverhcp02 said:
 

http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-Move-Controller-3/dp/B002I0J51U/ref=pd_sim_vg_2

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=240510

For target i used my area code of "43609" but i encourage others to try their areas and see if there is a similar result

http://www.target.com/gp/store-info/find-target-store.html?asin=B002I0J51U

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Playstation-3-Move-Motion-Controller-PS3-Move/14658864

 

Hey man, dont let reality get in the way of your crusade or anything.

Yay.  Let's play anecdotal evidence wars woohoo!!!

Not a single substantial retailer in my MAJOR city is sold out of Move.  But that is irrelevant, like your post.  Because the likes of NPD, VGC and Chart Track (the only people we know that take regional or global samples) indicate clearly that Sony has not sold anything like it's original shipment allotment of Move through to the public.

You have, again, failed to indicate where I said anything about Pachter's first estimate.

Miami best buys.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=241803

New York Best Buys

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=241904

Las Angeles Best Buys

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=242003

Dallas Best Buy

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=242049


You realize of course, that by continuing with blatant avoidance of sample-relevant evidence and continuing to produce anecdotal evidence with no substance or contextual base point, you do your entire argument a diservice.

Does anyone arguing in the pro wish to add their name to this young man's work?  Adopt his argument as their own?


You cherry picked by using such a limited example.

For example if you look at eb you will find tons of move controllers availabe:

http://www.ebgames.com/Browse/StoreSearch.aspx?sku=804177&return=/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?Product_ID=78144&loc=sonymove_btn_buynow

Also, wal mart does not have them online but the two in my town have many in the store.

Also if you check out eb or best buy you will see every store has the starter pack in ready supply.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1051329&_requestid=244367

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1051329&_requestid=246161

So both of your are wrong. There are a major retailers in major metro areas that are sold out but it is far from the complete sell out implied either. There are plenty of starter packs available and if you want a move controller you may not be able to go to the nearest store but you sure can find one without much trouble (10 ebs and 1 best buy have them within 15 miles of my zip 02189 and both walmarts within 2 miles). On the other side there are 5 stores in the same range that are sold out.

So how about you both give it a rest and drop this entire stupid pissing contest and get on with something more productive then trolling.



Nomad Blue on 25 October 2010
starcraft said:

Because the likes of NPD, VGC and Chart Track (the only people we know that take regional or global samples) indicate clearly that Sony has not sold anything like it's original shipment allotment of Move through to the public.


Can you show me Sony's original shipment figures to the regions that NPD and Chart Track monitor, and also the corresponding figures from NPD and Chart Track for how many of each Move unit have been sold?



thismeintiel on 25 October 2010
Fumanchu said:
thismeintiel said:
Seece said:
Fumanchu said:

I just wanted to bring up the possibility of Sony reporting their 'shipped' figures differently.  I have seen it discussed in other sales threads and it definitely helps to explain the discrepancy between their shipped totals and VGChartz sell-through numbers.  It's the theory that Sony count back-orders on their books before shipping to retailers.  Of course I don't think anyone that doesn't work at Sony will be able to confirm or deny this, but when you see reasoning to argue towards higher sell-through data such as; "they've shipped 2.5 million units and I can't find one at my local retailer" I always think of this as a possibility.      

Don't open another can of worms, you'll get your head bitten off bow down and worship the glorious Move sales without question!!!

Lol, you don't have to be a jerk about it.

Anyway, to answer your question Fumanchu, I believe that is how Sony used to report numbers during the PS1 & PS2 gens.  I'm almost 100% that they have switched to the industry standard (shipped to retailers) in 2006 or 2007.

@ nightsurge

You're right.  I'll fix that in a moment.

Thank you for clearing that up, like I said I didn't think of this theory myself - I had simply seen it posted quite a few times in different sales threads. 

Well this is more troubling for VGChartz numbers then I guess? The bigger Sony discrepancies are simply 'unknowns' then? i.e. untrackable regions?

Yea, I think many discrepancies come from Sony shipping to a few more regions than MS and Nintendo.  I remember reading a story a few months back about all the new regions Sony had started shipping to, but for the life of me I can't remember which ones they were.  Either way, I would imagine they are harder to track.