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Forums - Sony Discussion - Has the Playstation Move's apparent success made people go crazy?

M.U.G.E.N on 24 October 2010
steverhcp02 said:
Seece said:
thismeintiel said:
Seece said:
Darth Tigris said:

Quite true.

I think the big problem that keeps getting dodged by many is how IMPOSSIBLE it will be to properly  track a Move install base figure based on WHATEVER sales are presented.  Its comparable to Wii Play sales, as they may seem like the game is a huge success but many purchases were likely because of the controller.  But how do you know how many bought it for that reason?  Impossible to tell.  So when individuals celebrate or demean Move sales, it really rings hollow because its based on a general ignorance as WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

As Squil mentioned on page one, though, sales of Move-only games are the most important barometer for developers outside of SCE.  Any other sales figure will have far too many variables to judge how much they should invest in future Move titles.

Indeed, and the only true source we could ever hope to get, won't happen. Sony will always say "we've shipped 2.5 mill move" rather than "1 million install base", it just sounds better in every way to have a higher number.

So, when's the last time Nintendo or MS published their "install base numbers"?  I'm going to go out on a limb and say never.  This is exactly what I'm touching on in the OP.  This success has just messed with people's reasoning.  I don't understand why all these people all of a sudden have changed how they feel SONY should report its numbers just because of Move.  ALL companies report numbers this way.  Not only is it because it's an actual number and not an estimate, but because it's impossible to calculate the install base for anything.  Do you think there are companies that track every little country Sony, MS, and Nintendo ships to?  Of course not.  We have only people who track major regions.  And even with those large companies in large regions, they are all only estimates.  Ones that get corrected on a usual basis when financial reports arrive.

@ jneul

Well, I need to buy a plane ticket then, CAUSE I'M COMING OVER FOR DINNER!!

Yeah? I know that, and I'm not saying Sony SHOULD change the way they report numbers, don't jump the gun. The different with MS and Sony ect not saying what install base is, is we can track that for ourselves, from shipped figures and chart trackers like NPD and VGChartz. We can do all that with Move as well, but as you know it's more difficult to work out. Hence why an install base update from Sony would be more helpful than a console userbase update.

How in the world would they track that? And we certainly cant track install base and we certainly dont or else we wouldnt count PS3 slim rebuys or Xbox360s rebuys as unit sales now would we, or there would be disclaimers.

The Secret Polar Bear Agents of Doom Sony has knows no bounds..as we speak they secretly follow everyone who buys a move controller to their homes to track it.....Sony haz da numbers they are just too evil to release it

Btw guys, isn't it funny that there are so many posts that TRY to create an over hyped situation for Move so they can undermine the numbers? It's crazy..After Patchys numbers first time it was see that was expected! not too impressive! Hahahahahbuhahhalolol @move in NA! SOny and Jacky liez! and then suddenly when the numbers change, But but but Sony wanted it to be the next sliced Bread! These shipmentn umbers! For the sake of forum goers they SHOULD change their methods and say hey, we (insert random most probably a guestimate number here) houses with Move now, even though NO ONE does it.



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Seece on 24 October 2010
cory.ok said:
Seece said:

What on earth do the slim consoles have to do with this? The figures on the front page arnt nessacerily active install base but units SOLD across the globe, and when someone rebuys a slim what do you think happens to the phat? 9/10 times it's gets sold on to a new active user. And yes we do track overall Move sales and install base, obviously there is more room for discrepency. Sony will obviously know a lot about the sell through in each country, for various obvious reasons, they have the most data to hand to figure it out.


the sales figures arent even close to install base, not even a little bit.

how exactly would one account for the x360s failure rate or numerous new models?  a lot of the time the hardware sold gets broken, goes unused or is simply lost, whichever the case install base is always dropping, but also at the same time rising from new sales.  to raise an install base you have to get more people using your product than there are people stopping using your product

vgchartz tracks market share, not install base.  

I just said that, learn to read.

Most broken consoles get fixed by MS, so don't start spewing that crap, and like I said, when I sold my phat it went to a new home that bought games for it. Like most I imagin.



 

cory.ok on 24 October 2010
Seece said:
cory.ok said:
Seece said:

What on earth do the slim consoles have to do with this? The figures on the front page arnt nessacerily active install base but units SOLD across the globe, and when someone rebuys a slim what do you think happens to the phat? 9/10 times it's gets sold on to a new active user. And yes we do track overall Move sales and install base, obviously there is more room for discrepency. Sony will obviously know a lot about the sell through in each country, for various obvious reasons, they have the most data to hand to figure it out.


the sales figures arent even close to install base, not even a little bit.

how exactly would one account for the x360s failure rate or numerous new models?  a lot of the time the hardware sold gets broken, goes unused or is simply lost, whichever the case install base is always dropping, but also at the same time rising from new sales.  to raise an install base you have to get more people using your product than there are people stopping using your product

vgchartz tracks market share, not install base.  

I just said that, learn to read.

Most broken consoles get fixed by MS, so don't start spewing that crap, and like I said, when I sold my phat it went to a new home that bought games for it. Like most I imagin.

you said it wasnt 'necessarily active install base' (install base implies active btw), which is incorrect, you dont track install base at all. you then went on to say that you track move install base, which you dont.  you track market share and make guesses on install base based on market share.  completely different things.

though ms does offer to fix broken consoles within 3-4 years of purchase, it doesnt mean they fix all of them.  some people may not bother to send it in for repairs, might not know that the repairs are being offered, or buy a new one while theyre waiting for repairs because they dont want to wait to play a video game.  failure rate lowers install base, whether or not the fix is offered.  you not knowing this tells me that even if you did track install base, it would most likely be wrong.



Seece on 24 October 2010
cory.ok said:
Seece said:
cory.ok said:
Seece said:

What on earth do the slim consoles have to do with this? The figures on the front page arnt nessacerily active install base but units SOLD across the globe, and when someone rebuys a slim what do you think happens to the phat? 9/10 times it's gets sold on to a new active user. And yes we do track overall Move sales and install base, obviously there is more room for discrepency. Sony will obviously know a lot about the sell through in each country, for various obvious reasons, they have the most data to hand to figure it out.


the sales figures arent even close to install base, not even a little bit.

how exactly would one account for the x360s failure rate or numerous new models?  a lot of the time the hardware sold gets broken, goes unused or is simply lost, whichever the case install base is always dropping, but also at the same time rising from new sales.  to raise an install base you have to get more people using your product than there are people stopping using your product

vgchartz tracks market share, not install base.  

I just said that, learn to read.

Most broken consoles get fixed by MS, so don't start spewing that crap, and like I said, when I sold my phat it went to a new home that bought games for it. Like most I imagin.

you said it wasnt 'necessarily active install base' (install base implies active btw), which is incorrect, you dont track install base at all. you then went on to say that you track move install base, which you dont.  you track market share and make guesses on install base based on market share.  completely different things.

though ms does offer to fix broken consoles within 3-4 years of purchase, it doesnt mean they fix all of them.  some people may not bother to send it in for repairs, might not know that the repairs are being offered, or buy a new one while theyre waiting for repairs because they dont want to wait to play a video game.  failure rate lowers install base, whether or not the fix is offered.  you not knowing this tells me that even if you did track install base, it would most likely be wrong.

No, we do track install base for Move, it's in a sales article on the main site if you go look for it, I said the is a wider gap for discrepency. Not to mention, like I already said, the sales on the front page arnt install base, but from the SW sales and other various info, ioi and Source are able to get a close figure on active install base.

You keep pushing the notion there are a large chunk of 360's out of action all you like, there is more evidence to suggest not than to proove your point.



 

Carl on 24 October 2010
starcraft said:

My perception of their expectations?  A substantial shift in the public perception surrounding the PS3.  In the way people want to play games.  A sizeable and sustained increase in sales.

Certainly not the lacklustre sell through we've seen evidence of.

Move has clearly not been a major flop.  But to call it a "success" is an equivelant stretch, unless you truly believe that Son'y ONLY goal with Move was to literally break even on the hardware.

Right. Just want to say something.

The week before PS Move launched, PS3 sold 131k units Worldwide.

The week of PS Move (I say week, I mean 2 days on sale), the PS3 sold  170k units worldwide.

The following week (The first full week of PS Move), the PS3 sold 183k units worldwide.

The PS3 has outsold the Wii every week since PS Move launched, by 20k or more units, and hasn't dropped below 155k units WW... Without a Japan Move launch, which will be in this weeks data I think.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure Sony are happy with it having sold 2.5 Million units to retailers within a Month despite it being a "slow burner". And I'm pretty sure Sony fans are happy with it judging from comments in the WW Up threads.



                            

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steverhcp02 on 24 October 2010
Seece said:
steverhcp02 said:
Seece said:

Yeah? I know that, and I'm not saying Sony SHOULD change the way they report numbers, don't jump the gun. The different with MS and Sony ect not saying what install base is, is we can track that for ourselves, from shipped figures and chart trackers like NPD and VGChartz. We can do all that with Move as well, but as you know it's more difficult to work out. Hence why an install base update from Sony would be more helpful than a console userbase update.

How in the world would they track that? And we certainly cant track install base and we certainly dont or else we wouldnt count PS3 slim rebuys or Xbox360s rebuys as unit sales now would we, or there would be disclaimers.

What on earth do the slim consoles have to do with this? The figures on the front page arnt nessacerily active install base but units SOLD across the globe, and when someone rebuys a slim what do you think happens to the phat? 9/10 times it's gets sold on to a new active user. And yes we do track overall Move sales and install base, obviously there is more room for discrepency. Sony will obviously know a lot about the sell through in each country, for various obvious reasons, they have the most data to hand to figure it out.

It has everything to do with it. Youre claiming total amount sold and/or shipped is irrelavent because you need to know unique users with access to move. Well news flash, I own 2 moves. Now thats one household. You want to believe since i purchased 2 moves somehow this should only count as 1 "unique" user But guess what? My girlfriend is buying Get Fit with MelB and im buying Sorcery, one household 2 unique users.

I never disputed that sometimes, like in my case, when a user buys a second console they pass it along to someone, but its laughable you act as though it doesnt inflate numbers.

People cant demand "unique install base" then in the same breath hold up the sales boost from redesigned consoles. Im sorry Seece, if you cant see that hypocrisy then this conversation is hopeless.

Once again Seece, how does sell through (which Sony wont know btw they only can know what theyre shipping to retailers) give you install base. They can still be selling multiple controllers to single homes, sell through is irrelavent in this discussion.

Youre just desperately trying to downplay a very good shipped amount. Thats all there is to it. No one is even trying to act like the shipped amount is unique install base but to act like its irrelavent is pretty ridiculous.

Why cant people just take it at face value? Sony has sold a lot more of these than most of us expected. Bottomline.




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starcraft on 24 October 2010
Carl2291 said:
starcraft said:

My perception of their expectations?  A substantial shift in the public perception surrounding the PS3.  In the way people want to play games.  A sizeable and sustained increase in sales.

Certainly not the lacklustre sell through we've seen evidence of.

Move has clearly not been a major flop.  But to call it a "success" is an equivelant stretch, unless you truly believe that Son'y ONLY goal with Move was to literally break even on the hardware.

Right. Just want to say something.

The week before PS Move launched, PS3 sold 131k units Worldwide.

The week of PS Move (I say week, I mean 2 days on sale), the PS3 sold  170k units worldwide.

The following week (The first full week of PS Move), the PS3 sold 183k units worldwide.

The PS3 has outsold the Wii every week since PS Move launched, by 20k or more units, and hasn't dropped below 155k units WW... Without a Japan Move launch, which will be in this weeks data I think.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure Sony are happy with it having sold 2.5 Million units to retailers within a Month despite it being a "slow burner". And I'm pretty sure Sony fans are happy with it judging from comments in the WW Up threads.

Why on Earth is the Wii a standard bearer for success at this point?

The Xbox 360 has been beating it out of routine.  Taken from that perspective, Move has been out a few weeks and still hasn't led to the PS3 defeating Xbox 360, despite the products apparent strong region being Europe  (the Xbox 360's less strong region).

I haven't said at any point in this thread that the Move was a failure.  Did it do as well as Sony hoped it would?  Of course not.  If a tonne of advertising (in my country at least), a massive proportion of their major events time and budget, dozens of games and an emphasis that their flagship titles will utilize Move isn't an enormous amount of hype, then Sony has never utilized an enormous amount of hype for anything.

There seems to be a systematic notion of resistance in many posters in this thread (I am referring to others here Carl, rather than you) to the concept that Move was anything other than a resounding success, when there is clear evidence that it was not.



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

Seece on 24 October 2010
steverhcp02 said:
Seece said:
steverhcp02 said:
Seece said:

Yeah? I know that, and I'm not saying Sony SHOULD change the way they report numbers, don't jump the gun. The different with MS and Sony ect not saying what install base is, is we can track that for ourselves, from shipped figures and chart trackers like NPD and VGChartz. We can do all that with Move as well, but as you know it's more difficult to work out. Hence why an install base update from Sony would be more helpful than a console userbase update.

How in the world would they track that? And we certainly cant track install base and we certainly dont or else we wouldnt count PS3 slim rebuys or Xbox360s rebuys as unit sales now would we, or there would be disclaimers.

What on earth do the slim consoles have to do with this? The figures on the front page arnt nessacerily active install base but units SOLD across the globe, and when someone rebuys a slim what do you think happens to the phat? 9/10 times it's gets sold on to a new active user. And yes we do track overall Move sales and install base, obviously there is more room for discrepency. Sony will obviously know a lot about the sell through in each country, for various obvious reasons, they have the most data to hand to figure it out.

It has everything to do with it. Youre claiming total amount sold and/or shipped is irrelavent because you need to know unique users with access to move. Well news flash, I own 2 moves. Now thats one household. You want to believe since i purchased 2 moves somehow this should only count as 1 "unique" user But guess what? My girlfriend is buying Get Fit with MelB and im buying Sorcery, one household 2 unique users.

I never disputed that sometimes, like in my case, when a user buys a second console they pass it along to someone, but its laughable you act as though it doesnt inflate numbers.

People cant demand "unique install base" then in the same breath hold up the sales boost from redesigned consoles. Im sorry Seece, if you cant see that hypocrisy then this conversation is hopeless.

Once again Seece, how does sell through (which Sony wont know btw they only can know what theyre shipping to retailers) give you install base. They can still be selling multiple controllers to single homes, sell through is irrelavent in this discussion.

Youre just desperately trying to downplay a very good shipped amount. Thats all there is to it. No one is even trying to act like the shipped amount is unique install base but to act like its irrelavent is pretty ridiculous.

Why cant people just take it at face value? Sony has sold a lot more of these than most of us expected. Bottomline.

Really? I love it when people jump to conclusions about me, says more about themselves than it does me. I think 2.5 mill shipped is fantastic.

I never said 100% consoles are active, there are many that are broken and don't get fixed, people with 2 consoles ect. I already said the numbers on the front page are SOLD figures.

ioi (and sony I very much imagine) have a lot of data and ways to figure out what the install base is, for all varying types of gamers, ones like yourself buying 2 moves, or ones buying 1. I don't believe that information is soo impossible like people are making out.



 

starcraft on 24 October 2010
IMU1808 said:
starcraft said:
CGI-Quality said:
starcraft said:

Success is all relative.  Do I believe that in and of itself Move will make a profit?  Likely.

Could the resources Sony has poured into it have been better spent?  Probably.

Did Move do what Sony and many of it's fans hoped or intended?  Certainly not.

And what did either of them intend?

A revitalizing of the platform?  Some sort of gaming revolution?

Certainly a much greater set of sales to consumers and a far better resonation with the public than what has happened thus far.

Could the situation change?  Of course.

Will it change?  Let's wait and see.


You're confusing statements about Move with statements at the project Natal unveiling and later MS comments...

No, no I am not.

MS are ALSO expecting massive things from their product.  The reason they are still playing theirs up, while Sony and it's strict adherents are quickly backpeddling expectations, is because Kinect is yet to release.  If it does not sell millions this side of Christmas to consumers, it too will have failed to meet the expectations Microsoft clearly has for it, alongside Move.



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

starcraft on 24 October 2010
CGI-Quality said:
starcraft said:
CGI-Quality said:
starcraft said:
CGI-Quality said:
starcraft said:

Success is all relative.  Do I believe that in and of itself Move will make a profit?  Likely.

Could the resources Sony has poured into it have been better spent?  Probably.

Did Move do what Sony and many of it's fans hoped or intended?  Certainly not.

And what did either of them intend?

A revitalizing of the platform?  Some sort of gaming revolution?

Certainly a much greater set of sales to consumers and a far better resonation with the public than what has happened thus far.

Could the situation change?  Of course.

Will it change?  Let's wait and see.

I don't recall Sony saying that. I certainly don't recall Sony fans saying that.

Are you honestly going to refute the notion that Playstation Move was a strongly hyped, highly emphasised part of Sony's PS3 stratagem from the moment it was announced?

I'm strongly refuting your claims, which are nothing more than blowing smoke. Move wasn't hyped to all crazy levels by Sony nor Sony fans. It had hype, but it wasn't expected to do gangbusters, as you seem to be implying.

Please do not paraphrase me, nor refuse to engage with my logical arguments by simple labelling them as smoke.  If you wish to concede, do so.  If not, engage.

See my response to Carl.  There was a tonne of Sony-centered hype for the product.  It will no doubt make money, it did not meet the hopes of Sony.



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS