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Forums - General - Federal minimum wage is unconstitutional

Fumanchu said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:

Hahahahha, I came in here expecting an argument that the federal minimum wage was too LOW because it isn't actually a living wage.

Look at it this way: if you work a minimum wage job, THANK YOUR GOVERNMENT.  What that means is: that job would love to pay you less, but the government won't let them, because the government understands that without people who are alive, there will be crazy revolutions.  And people fought for that right.  It's called progress.

I didn't expect the crazy argument that "all progress is bad, because the constitution didn't say 'things could get better.'"  You know what else isn't in the constitution?  Rights for women, blacks, gays, children, or pretty much anybody that isn't a white male landowner.  So we had 2 options: amend the constitution, or burn it and start over.  Luckily we chose the former, and here we are, still getting better very slowly.

That is one way of looking at it.  Another way would be that the groups and minorities you've listed are now worse off for the fundamental flaw in this IR legislation = a minimum wage lowers available jobs.  Unskilled people are now being pushed out of the market and are completely dependent on welfare, because businesses can't afford to hire more people for less and build up their skillsets and experience with a minimum wage in place.  Not saying that I advocate this point of view, but the argument has merit. 

Worse off? I live in the South. I'd literally be working all day for no pay until I dropped dead if we had that good old constitution from back in the day. Tell you want, he can have his way. Pay me, with interest, for all the back pay my ancestors are owed and I'll get the hell up out here.



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numonex said:

http://chattahbox.com/us/2010/10/04/radical-tenther-joe-miller-fed-minimum-wage-unconsitutional/

Radical Republican Joe Miller goes on to say unemployment benefits, Social Security, MediAid, MediCare are unconstitutional.

The Government should only provide military and police forces with small tax rates. Public spending is a waste of tax payers money and unconstitutional . A lot of reforms and amendments would need to be overturned that breach the original Constitution constructed in the 18th century. He goes on to say child slave labour laws are in breach of the American constitution

Should the American constitution from the 18th century be strictly enforced? Do you support Miller's stances on these controversial issues?

Excellent.  This made my day.



mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:

Payroll Taxes.

You may not pay into FICA, but you will pay into social security and medicare, regardless of income. That is where the pain comes to those barely making a living. Furthermore, even if you don't pay federal taxes, it is done by taking money from you today, and giving it back to you without interest at a later day. That damages poor and middle class workers that may need that money today, and are forced to either borrow, or go without.

I must also ask: If overhead is so much cheaper for government insurance, why does private insurance cost about 45% less per enrollment than Medicare in the US?

In my case, without Medicaid, I am looking at ZERO prospects to get health coverage now, and gewt help needed to get fixed up so I can at least work a part-time janitor position.  Flat out, if you have better solutions to assist myself and others, NOW to help me get back on my feet, so I can be productive, do drop me a note.  If you don't, you really don't have answers for people, outside of some unproven hypothetical world that is superior in your mind to what is.

Very well, I'll play your game:

What kind of degree do you hold, currently?

BS management, Masters in Information Systems.  If you actually want to do something constructive, send me a private message and I can set up a way to get you a copy of my resume.  Things I am working on now are meant to lead to constructive solutions.



HappySqurriel said:
whatever said:

I guess we should throw out the 40 hour work week, vacation, and sick pay.  Just get rid of all these worker's rights that are a hinderance to large corporations.

Do you think that the vast majority of individuals would work more than a 40 hour work week, would not receive vacation, or would not get sick-leave if the government didn't mandate it?

Contractors, whom corporations increasingly rely upon, go unpaid if they are sick or go on vacation. Salaried employees are driven to work far more than 40 hours a week in corporate circles.  Certain retailers happen to want to put as many people into management, so they don't need to pay them overtime.  Other individuals will be put in a place by companies that want them to do work, and not pay them for it.  So, if a company can get free labor, they will go for it.  You see this case with unpaid interns:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&hp



outlawauron said:
richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:

I agree with him.

It'd be an incredible world if the government didn't take 30% of everyones income. Imagine the living standards of the poor and middle class that had far less taxation.

Ultimately, major spending such as the mentioned (health care, pensions, ect) should be dealt with from a state or personal level. Many of the programs the government has that were listed (Medicaid/care, social security, ect) are utter failures, which cost much more than equivilent private programs.

Over 40% of the U.S population pays no federal income tax.  How exactly does cutting taxes help them?  I believe you need to have less ideological purity and mmore real data.  As far as up to individuals, unless I get help. I stand a distinct chance of never becpming employable for health reasons.  I was told I need over $2000 to cover a gap insurgey expenses that I don't have.  By the way, the costs to administer Medicare is far less than the costs toadminister private insurance.

Wait a second. If over 40% doesn't pay federal income tax, then how am I doing as a part time student worker for a public university making a bit of minimum wage.

You should be looking at getting a refund at tax time.



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numonex said:

Should the American constitution from the 18th century be strictly enforced?


Yes.  Most federal laws and federal jobs are unconstitutional.  The Consitution should be followed.  I don't think that will ever happen though.  So I joined with the other Americans that care most about and moved to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project.  Live Free or Die!

101 Reasons to Move to New Hampshire.

http://www.freestateproject.org/101Reasons



 

Tired of big government?
Want liberty in your lifetime?
Join us @
http://www.freestateproject.org

mrstickball said:

It'd be an incredible world if the government didn't take 30% of everyones income. Imagine the living standards of the poor and middle class that had far less taxation.

Ultimately, major spending such as the mentioned (health care, pensions, ect) should be dealt with from a state or personal level. Many of the programs the government has that were listed (Medicaid/care, social security, ect) are utter failures, which cost much more than equivilent private programs.

1st paragraph: Actually, they don't. The median income for a household in the US is just under $50,000. Per the 2010 tax tables, a married couple doesn't pay more than 15% on any money earned until passing $75,750, and won't hit over 30% until passing $217,000. So they're not getting 30% of their money back, which leads to...

2nd paragraph: So, in exchange for giving them 15% back (well, less, taxes on $50,000 is $4900, less than 10%), they're expected to cover all the costs for the things they are getting from the government? If the states pick up the tab, state taxes are going to go up, making this moot. But if they have to pay for all those services themselves, can they get them all for $4900/year? No, thus putting them in a worse position than they were in before this "tax cut." Sure, there are inefficiencies in the system. But just throwing the whole system out isn't going to fix it. They need to step back and look where money can be trimmed- that's the course of action that is needed, not just cutting taxes to cut out all the services.

General topic: Getting rid of the minimum wage would be stupid; as things stand, people can't afford to have a place to live in some areas of the US on the current minimum. Paying people even less would just make them even more dependant on the government for assistance, and isn't what people want to do, is get people off needing the government's help for everything? If that $7.25/hr job ($15,080 per year, at 40 hours/week and 52 weeks/year- or less than the poverty line for a family of 3.) suddenly drops to paying $5/hr, where does that extra money go? Not to the people who need it; it stays in the pockets of the rich owners, helping to further the divide between rich and poor. Nay, I would propose slowly raising the minimum wage toward $10/hr, letting people earn a livable wage. Not a good life with fanciness, but to work toward getting a home and supporting a family.



-dunno001

-On a quest for the truly perfect game; I don't think it exists...

dunno001 said:
mrstickball said:

It'd be an incredible world if the government didn't take 30% of everyones income. Imagine the living standards of the poor and middle class that had far less taxation.

Ultimately, major spending such as the mentioned (health care, pensions, ect) should be dealt with from a state or personal level. Many of the programs the government has that were listed (Medicaid/care, social security, ect) are utter failures, which cost much more than equivilent private programs.

1st paragraph: Actually, they don't. The median income for a household in the US is just under $50,000. Per the 2010 tax tables, a married couple doesn't pay more than 15% on any money earned until passing $75,750, and won't hit over 30% until passing $217,000. So they're not getting 30% of their money back, which leads to...

Then why was I taxed at 25% while making $30,000/yr? Yes, people do get taxes back to make the effective rate 15%, but you give the government an interest free loan until you get your tax return.

2nd paragraph: So, in exchange for giving them 15% back (well, less, taxes on $50,000 is $4900, less than 10%), they're expected to cover all the costs for the things they are getting from the government? If the states pick up the tab, state taxes are going to go up, making this moot. But if they have to pay for all those services themselves, can they get them all for $4900/year? No, thus putting them in a worse position than they were in before this "tax cut." Sure, there are inefficiencies in the system. But just throwing the whole system out isn't going to fix it. They need to step back and look where money can be trimmed- that's the course of action that is needed, not just cutting taxes to cut out all the services.

I never said the state would pick up the tabs for 100% of the programs, did I? Some programs would and should be phased out entirely like Social Security, because it is horribly inefficient. If the state did pick up the tab, they would likely do it in a way which would save taxpayers significant amounts of money, thereby  resulting in net savings. Again, my example has been compound interest rates - if you earned 7% on your pension instead of Social Security's 2.32%, you would be need only spend half the amount of money to get the same amount of retirement.

General topic: Getting rid of the minimum wage would be stupid; as things stand, people can't afford to have a place to live in some areas of the US on the current minimum.

You assume that places that have minimum wages in high cost-of-living areas pay minimum wage. From my understanding, a fast food worker in Beverly Hills makes about $20/hr. Wages sometimes have a way of changing based on income in the area.

Paying people even less would just make them even more dependant on the government for assistance, and isn't what people want to do, is get people off needing the government's help for everything?

Not quite. The argument for a lower minimum wage means that employers are able to hire more workers due to more flexible costs of employees. This would allow more people to go to employment, thereby resulting in a net reduction in government services, as some people that are currently under government assistance could then have a job.

If that $7.25/hr job ($15,080 per year, at 40 hours/week and 52 weeks/year- or less than the poverty line for a family of 3.) suddenly drops to paying $5/hr, where does that extra money go? Not to the people who need it; it stays in the pockets of the rich owners, helping to further the divide between rich and poor. Nay, I would propose slowly raising the minimum wage toward $10/hr, letting people earn a livable wage. Not a good life with fanciness, but to work toward getting a home and supporting a family.

Do you realize that when we raise the minimum wage, we're going to have more unemployment and a higher cost of goods for basic needs that those on minimum/low wages rely on? Why not raise minimum wage to $50/hr? I mean, $50 is a more livable wage than $10, right?





Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Dammit, it ate my post.



" The Government should only provide military and police forces with small tax rates."

What about teachers, their just as vital as any Cop or Soldier. Their ensuring and shaping tomorows American workforce.They should be given as many perks and brakes as all the Jarheads in the middle east and corruptable politicians in DC.