By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Evolution at work? Craziest thing I've seen all day.

theprof00 said:

slimebeast is right, this isn't evolution.

This is an adaptation, possibly an adaptation that is simply a work-around that the skink has always been capable of. 

Now for the positive; this could become an evolution after a significant time period.

The basis of evolution is the change of gene structure based on environmental isolation. In the case of the skinks, they have:

a) environmental isolation, but not b) genetic difference (that we know of yet)

Over time environmental isolation leads to genetic differences because the majority of the species in isolation evolves according to genetics of the founding parents. Generally, the evolved ability is present in a small minority of the species, but once it becomes isolated, sometimes the trait becomes dominant if it improves reproductivity or survival.

Gradually, this trait becomes so genetically different the the species can no longer reproduce with the other side of the species.

Now, to counter slimebeast, taking off a sweater or putting one on is an ability that humans have to keep ourselves warm. However, most animals are capable of keeping themselves warm, it's just that we have figured out a way to make that ability mobile. Cats in the cold will hide under a house, but they can't take the house with them. So while the analogy is a good argument, you skim over the inherent evolution of wearing clothes in itself. Evolutions are almost never dramatic leaps of mutation, but co-adaptations that become a new ability, In the sense of clothing, those co-adaptations were "being able to hold things" and "being able to warm oneself". Those are two parts of an entirely new evolution. Humans aren't evolved to wear clothes. We are evolved to carry things and warm ourselves. 

Similarly in the skinks, they are evolved to  regulate their birthing method depending on temperature condition and they are evolved to carry eggs. These two traits may be combining to become "live birthing" skinks. I haven't read the actual article in the journal, so I don't know how pervasive these two traits already are in the skink population. What may end up happening is that only a small portion of skinks are capable of this egg regulation, but they will be become the dominant members of the isolated population. The only thing that's missing here is why they would live in the colder temperatures. There needs to be a motivation.

For example, if caves were full of food and warmth, humans would never need to wear clothing. Humans wore clothing because the north had clean water, lots of large wild animals, and less poisonous insects and vermin. It was natural to move there.

Now, if they can show me why the skinks are preferring to live in colder areas, I would have the proof I need to call this potential evolution, which it is.

That's what I've been saying all along isn't it? An extended period of this environmental pressure over many generations causing live birth will accumulate into an evolution. There will be a genetic difference if this occurs. I know it's not an evolution right now; It's an adaptation, but one that will lead to natural selection and perhaps eventually evolution if the need to continually adapt exists over a period of many generations.



Around the Network
Farmageddon said:

If I may, I think what's happening here is that Slimebeast simply hasn't saw enough evidence that, on this case, there's any difference at all between these lizards. They might just be reacting, through the same mechanism, to their different habitats.

Now, I think a simple experiment of taking a group from the south to the north and another from the north to the south could settle that well enough. That or sequencing their genomes :P

He never sees enough evidence. Slimebeast has an automated response to refute evolution, regardless of what evidence is given to him. It takes a lot of work to try and get him to admit when something is an evolution.

And yes, they are reacting with this mechanism to the environment, but the ability to react with this mechanism will lead to natural selection. They may be the same now, but over many generations under the same environmental conditions these lizards will be very likely to evolve and become viviparous.

Ooo, I just got the strangest sensation of deja vu



The end result of multiple Pokemon battles, I'd wager.



highwaystar101 said:
Farmageddon said:

If I may, I think what's happening here is that Slimebeast simply hasn't saw enough evidence that, on this case, there's any difference at all between these lizards. They might just be reacting, through the same mechanism, to their different habitats.

Now, I think a simple experiment of taking a group from the south to the north and another from the north to the south could settle that well enough. That or sequencing their genomes :P

He never sees enough evidence. Slimebeast has an automated response to refute evolution, regardless of what evidence is given to him. It takes a lot of work to try and get him to admit when something is an evolution.

And yes, they are reacting with this mechanism to the environment, but the ability to react with this mechanism will lead to natural selection. They may be the same now, but over many generations under the same environmental conditions these lizards will be very likely to evolve and become viviparous.

Ooo, I just got the strangest sensation of deja vu


About the second paragraph, sure, I agree that wuld happen if the enviroment keeps that way and all that. The point that looking at any mechanism that depends on the ambient in any espicies which has populations in two or more different places with different conditions and saying "so, this will lead to evolution" isn't very special, as you could find millions of cases all the time. Furthermore, it's no extra evidence for evolution (not that I think it needs any) as it's simply stating a fact and saying what the theory predicts from that fact.It's not "evolution at work" (if that even makes sense, as if evolution decided to start or stop working now and then :P) as much as "basis for evolution to work".

And I think that's where you and Slimebeast are having problems. I don't think (but I might be wrong) he disagrees that having that difference in enviroment may cause future evolution and possibly speciation. I think what he expected (and to some extent that's what I expected too) was something along the lines of they finding a few different populations at different stages of this depending on their enviroment, and that the change is actually genotypical (no need to test the genes, simply taking groups of each population and letting them somewhere else, and ideally testing their calcium production, should work). That would be far more interesting as it would show that those populations of that species are actually changing due to their habitat. As it stands it's nice but it's just nothing so noteworthy.



Why are people making a distinction between adaptation and evolution? They are the same thing.



Around the Network

The evolution that's really going on in Khuutra's head




I am the black sheep     "of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."-Robert Anton Wilson

No natural selection has occurred here. This is just the snake changing the mechanism for which it gives birth to allow for the survival of its kids.

If they were brought to warmer weather, their method of birth would revert to eggs.

This isn't evolution. The snakes aren't evolving before our very eyes, they had the ability to give birth to live babies and eggs. When the snakes that are better fit to give live births survive and pass those genes on and the ones that aren't fit for live birth die, then the snakes would be evolving.

But right now, they're not evolved. They're just snakes that are deciding which type of birth would be better and act accordingly.



Kimi wa ne tashika ni ano toki watashi no soba ni ita

Itsudatte itsudatte itsudatte

Sugu yoko de waratteita

Nakushitemo torimodosu kimi wo

I will never leave you

It's not evolution till that stupid species gets wiped out

 

Global warming plus   evolving to live in colder climates = profit?

 

Regardless, awesome!

 

Edit - VGChartz srtill doesnt support the plus sign? Also wiped not whiped



Thank you theprof00, Farmageddon and dtewi. I appreciate your contributions to the thread.



omg.

Adaptation is the beginning process of evolution. First you adapt to surrounds by having a metaphysical change. That change is preferred by the species and over time replaces other variants which ultimately finalizes an evolutionary step.

Jesus, do you absolutely require that the southern skinks die off 100% to see it as evolution in motion? If so that's crazy.