Speaking of another fascinating dictator.

If you ever get a chance to see a piece of Hitler's art it's shockingly forebodding and haunting to what he would become.

Hitler was a great artist... at scenary, and objects.   Look at the people though...

http://www.mninter.net/~hedwards/bush/Image07.jpg

http://abluteau.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/hitler1_1372309c.jpg

Well, to be fair, it's hard to prove two mutually exclusive claims!  (Irrelevant yet harmful?) 

Well there must be a reason Castro is still and indeed very popular among the cubans, even though the people are so poor. And he's not only popular in Cuba, he's one of the most popular "politicians" in the world - even a lot more popular than Obama.

If it wasn't for the embargo the USA have enforced for decades now, Cuba would probably be a rather wealthy country by now. But that would have proven that communism actually can work, so they tried to destroy the country by stopping almost all of its import/export, so they could point their fingers at the country and claim: "Look how poor that country is - that's just because of communism!"

Given how handicapped Cuba is because of the embargo, it's actually really impressive that the country isn't in a much worse state. Despite being so poor, Cuba has a fantastic medical and educational system for example.

Thanks you for that. I've had conversations like this many times in the past and its like people seem to not know History. People forget how Universities appeared because of the Church and how it single-handedly protected discoveries (specially during the invasion of Europe by the barbarian tribes).

I like your style a lot, Kaz. You are the most objective person I have ever met (well, "read" ). I know you have your problems with the Catholic Church, but it doesnt keep you from seeing the other side as well. And not just in this issue. You are one of the very few who had actually go in to debate instead of just attacking others.

If only the internet had more people like you. Kudos to you, sir!

1. I fully understand what statistics are. Don't be so patronising. I guess your a member of the some kind of God squad.

2. Err...Lourdes for one. 2 million Muslims visit the Hajj every year and each time they visit just before they see the Kabbah they pray for one wish before laying their eyes upon it. Unfortunately the Saudi authorities haven't released any data on the success to failure ratio of each prayer.

3. Unlike the statistic question you never asked me to prove how religion has been harmful to civilisation so why the complaint. Doesn't prove I'm full of it at all.

I'm fully aware of the destructive role religion has played in holding back and persecuting men and women of science for centuries and so should you unless you've been reading the Roman Catholic version of history.

Science and religion have only had 'minor' tiffs? Hah!

Because it would be quite unscientific not to be but then again we can't disprove anything man makes up (fairies, ghosts etc) so perhaps I should just say atheist.

1.  You didn't actually use any statistics though.  There were no anaysis of reliablility etc.

2. Yeah, you haven't actually used any statistical processes in any manner. 

3.  You said.

Statiscally speaking faith is irrelevant and harmful to the advancement of human civilisation.

As in you said that statistically speaking, it was both irrelevent and harmful. 

And as has already been mentioned, it sceince wouldn't of even been where it was unless it was for said chruch.

Without religon, we'd be lucky if we had WW2 level technology right now.  That's just... basic knowledge of history and of how science was funded and things in general.  Heck even the most famous examples of the church trying to stop scientists had less to do with the church and more to do with the political dealings as can be seen by the many church supports Galileo had.

Galileo's trial had less to do with heliocentracism and more to do that he inadvertidly made fun of the pople and basically called him an idiot.  The pope asked him to put the Pope's thoughts on the matter in the book.  Which Galileo agreed to.  He named said character a name that means Simpleton in Italian.

He wasn't arrested because of his viewpoint.  He was arrested because he called the pope a Simpleton

The pope... up until then actually being one of Galileo's biggest supporters.

Oh wow, I knew Galileo was needlessly antagonistic but I didn't know it was that bad

Well, i think most people think he did it on accident.   Afterall he and the pope were good friends.

However, after being called an idiot, and considering plenty thought he was a weak indecisicive pope.  Like any king in that situation he feared assassanation.  At that point it developed into galielo or him.

The catholic church has a hidden history of intrigue behind it that rivals any other nation.

Personally I buy into the theory that the pope before John Paul as assassanated.

To our good fortune, happiness and enjoyment, it's not like modern governments, including those who reign US, kill anyone who disagrees. Or even invade nations, no no no, that's all bad memories from the ancient history. Sweet hipocrisy.