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Forums - Gaming - SE devs discuss what they've learned from Western devs at CEDEC

.jayderyu said:

nothing wrong with younger characters. As mentioned Harry Potter, but there is also Luke Sky Walker, Frodo the Ring Bearer also fall into the position as world savior without lot's of wisdom or experience. The focus of these young characters is growth over a period of time. Start with a character like us(normal) then have the audience grow through the experiences. That works. It works really well. Then there is "Western" fiction where character are already prepared to save the world. More along Bond style. What's jarring to American audiences is the savant fighting kid.

I found the article weird and confusing if they were giving props or being negative.


The basic point of the article is that Japanese developers by and large look down upon Western games and design philosphy, but, in the case of these two developers, once they began working with Western developers, they began to understand why they do what they do, and they now see the benefits of these design paradigms.



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Kinda hard for Square to sell games in the West when they don't make any... I mean except for DS and PSP games what has Square made in the last 5 years?  The Last Remnant, Final Fantasy XiII and some Wii games (2 or 3 I think).  Maybe if they just made games instead of complaining about not making games then maybe their games will sell.



makingmusic476 said:

1UP: Square Enix Devs Discuss Secret AAA Title and What They've Learned From the West

At the conference, Yosuke Shiokawa and Yuki Matsuzawa addressed these queries in a presentation titled, "First Time Japanese American Joint Development: Observations on our experience of taking direction from both countries." While both developers live in Japan, they are currently working on an as yet unannounced title that is being jointly developed in Japan and America. They claimed that this title will be a AAA title with a 90% plus metacritic score. Despite this, Shiokawa and Matsuzawa said they looked down on Western games. This attitude is still not uncommon in Japan, where until recently, the phrase "Western games are crap games" was taken as a self-evident truth by both fans and game makers.

Shiokawa began the presentation discussing the concept of "realism" in Western games. He said that in Square's experience, the Western developers don't strive so much for realism as believability. Players need to "suspend disbelief." Using various protagonists as an example, he said that saving the world is dangerous, so it's a man's job. He needs wisdom and experience, so he's older, and of course he has to be strong and macho. However, he went on to say that an unrealistic but believable character that allows players to suspend their disbelief is also OK.

The two presenters continued on to Japanese top-down decisionmaking versus American the bottom-up style. They claimed that the speed of decisionmaking in America is the result of everyone discussing issues until a consensus is met. They contrasted this method with the traditional Japanese process of waiting for top management to decide on something and order it. The presenters concluded that the latter management style helps maintain consistency and believability.

Another Western practice that Shiokawa and Matsuzawa stressed was keeping a game-universe "bible." The two stated that such documentation allows for the entire design team, and all the artists, to share in their creation of the world. It allows for something as simple as the shape of building corners to be detailed and consistent throughout the entire game.

The presentation ended by Shiokawa and Matsuzawa saying that even though America is a country of many different races, religions and creeds, they beat Japan in terms of project efficiency. Shiokawa stressed that if Japanese game makers want to sell copies of their products in America, they are going to have to learn how to make their worlds believable in the same way.

It seems that they are beginning to see some of the benefits of western game design.

If they can take some of what they've learned and bring it back to Japan, it could go a long way towards fixing the weak points in many modern Japanese games while making their strong points even more notable and worthy of praise.

I generally enjoy Japanese games for their art style and gameplay systems, but the tendency for such games to have convoluted and overly emotional narratives as well as inconsistencies in the overarching game world often weakens the experience for me.  Making their game worlds more believable (as in more consistent and with more believable personalities - by all means continue giving me my gunblades and other craziness) would make the artistry and imagination within these worlds all the more interesting.


I agree with the bible thing. Mass Efect 2 codex hands down is an example.Like they said it isn't much about  realism but about believablity. You can have a guy with a 50 pound sword in wrpgs but they tend to give in depth explainations about why he can lift the sword, lots of back stories about the world etc etc.



SOLIDSNAKE08 said:

its been confirmed today that GT5 has a weather system, track editor and go karts! seriously i think this is going to be the best selling in the series even beating GT3 sales of 14 million plus!

Shiokawa began the presentation discussing the concept of "realism" in Western games. He said that in Square's experience, the Western developers don't strive so much for realism as believability. Players need to "suspend disbelief." Using various protagonists as an example, he said that saving the world is dangerous, so it's a man's job. He needs wisdom and experience, so he's older, and of course he has to be strong and macho. However, he went on to say that an unrealistic but believable character that allows players to suspend their disbelief is also OK.

I'm confused on this paragraph.  Anyone care to translate?



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theRepublic said:

Shiokawa began the presentation discussing the concept of "realism" in Western games. He said that in Square's experience, the Western developers don't strive so much for realism as believability. Players need to "suspend disbelief." Using various protagonists as an example, he said that saving the world is dangerous, so it's a man's job. He needs wisdom and experience, so he's older, and of course he has to be strong and macho. However, he went on to say that an unrealistic but believable character that allows players to suspend their disbelief is also OK.

I'm confused on this paragraph.  Anyone care to translate?


Any specific part you're having trouble with? Realism vs believability?  The described character type?  The optional character type?



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makingmusic476 said:
theRepublic said:

Shiokawa began the presentation discussing the concept of "realism" in Western games. He said that in Square's experience, the Western developers don't strive so much for realism as believability. Players need to "suspend disbelief." Using various protagonists as an example, he said that saving the world is dangerous, so it's a man's job. He needs wisdom and experience, so he's older, and of course he has to be strong and macho. However, he went on to say that an unrealistic but believable character that allows players to suspend their disbelief is also OK.

I'm confused on this paragraph.  Anyone care to translate?


Any specific part you're having trouble with? Realism vs believability?  The described character type?  The optional character type?

I suppose I'm most confused in how he is using realism vs believability here.



Switch Code: SW-7377-9189-3397 -- Nintendo Network ID: theRepublic -- Steam ID: theRepublic

Now Playing
Switch - Super Mario Maker 2 (2019)
3DS - Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (Trilogy) (2005/2014)
Mobile - Yugioh Duel Links (2017)
Mobile - Super Mario Run (2017)
PC - Borderlands 2 (2012)
PC - Deep Rock Galactic (2020)

theRepublic said:
makingmusic476 said:
theRepublic said:

Shiokawa began the presentation discussing the concept of "realism" in Western games. He said that in Square's experience, the Western developers don't strive so much for realism as believability. Players need to "suspend disbelief." Using various protagonists as an example, he said that saving the world is dangerous, so it's a man's job. He needs wisdom and experience, so he's older, and of course he has to be strong and macho. However, he went on to say that an unrealistic but believable character that allows players to suspend their disbelief is also OK.

I'm confused on this paragraph.  Anyone care to translate?


Any specific part you're having trouble with? Realism vs believability?  The described character type?  The optional character type?

I suppose I'm most confused in how he is using realism vs believability here.

I believe realism refers to how a game world functions and compares to the real world, while believability refers to how a game world functions in an of itself.  You can have an entirely unrealistic game world that is still very believable so long as it consistantly follows its own rules and logic.  For example, the realm of Middle-earth crafted by Tolkien is a good example of an unrealistic yet believe world, while the setting of, say, Final Fantasy X could be considered a world that is quite unbelievable.

Given what he says, it seems most Japanese gamers and developers hold the view that Western games are by and large built around the concept of realism, something that Shiokawa and Matsuzawa have realized isn't really the case now that they've spent some time working with Western developers.  This misconception isn't all that surprising, really.  It probably has its roots in the fact that a majority of Western games have a fairly realistic artstyles, unlike most Japanese games (games like Uncharted, Crysis, Mass Effect, Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc. vs Mario, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Monster Hunter, Tales).  The popularity of Grand Theft Auto and Call of Duty in the West probably only feeds this stereotype.



The easiest way to describe believability would be to compare Metroid and Sin and Punishment. Both have fantastical alien monsters, but Metroid's monsters have always made a good deal of sense, while Sin and Punishment has random evolutions and inexplicable everything.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.