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Mr Puggsly said:
shio said:

I bought Half-Life for $0.99, and many other cool games for that price on Steam. I bought Mass Effect and Bioshock for $5, I bought Borderlands for $10, Witcher for $10, Mount & Blade for $7.50, Eve Online for $2, L4D2 for $13, Portal for $0, Zeno Clash with a 50% discount BEFORE IT WAS RELEASED, etc...

Wowzers, you spend all that money! Developers must be getting rich with all your nickels and dimes!

Steam must make billions getting their share of that too...

Actually yes, somehow those PC developers are all making huge amount of revenue AND growing. New, independent developers are forming and growing on PC, while they're dying on consoles. 

How many new, independent console developers have made AAA games this generation?

You see, even though I bought The Witcher at $10 (more around $11), they made as much money as the average console developer makes from a $60 console game!! Publishers, retailers, distributors, marketing, etc... are all taking a piece of developers' money on consoles. Which is why there's so little AAA independent developers on consoles these days.



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@ Mr Puggsly - Most games dosent even release on the PC? Whatcha talking about Willis!? The PC platform has more games than any other platform. If you're refering to games like Alan Wake and/or Gears or Halo etc. Its not because there's pircay. Its because MS wants to define their console.

- GFWL gets more support and major exclusives? What are these exclusives you're talking about? Havent seen anything that supports that claim? One or two games wont steal people from Steam. And the support is good and all, but if you do a google search of GFWL, you'll see that 9 out of 10 links are hate threads towards GFWL and problems with the service.

- MMORPG dosent count towards PC Gaming? Should Demon's Souls, Borderlands, Mass Effect, Dragon Age not be included in the term gaming aswell? RPGs are just a linear version of MMORPG. Dosen't demand any more skill than an MMO, id say its more likely the other way around. And what's this damage you're talking about? MMOs is probably the most popular genre out there, and with micro transactions and subscribtion fee's, it has most likely been a huge help to the PC devs.

- GFWL gaining on Steam? Not likely. Steam is the No1 pc game service, it expanded to MAC and is soon to be found on consoles. GFWL isn't even close. No matter how much support they get, MS will never invest that amount of effort into making GFWL a competitor to Steam. And alot of GFWL titles released in 2009 and 2010 dosent even use the Live feature. GFWL also had like 70 released in total between ´09 and ´10, while steam had 350'ish in the same period. The Xbox 360 had about 200 games in that time frame. Which goes to show that the statement of games not making it to the PC is just selective perception from a personal point of view, and prefrence.  

 



shio said:
Mr Puggsly said:
shio said:

I bought Half-Life for $0.99, and many other cool games for that price on Steam. I bought Mass Effect and Bioshock for $5, I bought Borderlands for $10, Witcher for $10, Mount & Blade for $7.50, Eve Online for $2, L4D2 for $13, Portal for $0, Zeno Clash with a 50% discount BEFORE IT WAS RELEASED, etc...

Wowzers, you spend all that money! Developers must be getting rich with all your nickels and dimes!

Steam must make billions getting their share of that too...

Actually yes, somehow those PC developers are all making huge amount of revenue AND growing. New, independent developers are forming and growing on PC, while they're dying on consoles. 

How many new, independent console developers have made AAA games this generation?

You see, even though I bought The Witcher at $10 (more around $11), they made as much money as the average console developer makes from a $60 console game!! Publishers, retailers, distributors, marketing, etc... are all taking a piece of developers' money on consoles. Which is why there's so little AAA independent developers on consoles these days.

Huge amount of revenue? Probably not. Atleast not huge for major developers.

I'd be willing to agree independent developers are still going strong on PCs. They are also going strong on services like PSN and XBLA. But we both know consoles are generally the bread and butter for major and big budget releases.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

I like how PC and its unbeatable value and offer width make Mr Puggsly feel so butthurt and sour grapes!   



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


STEKSTAV said:

@ Mr Puggsly - Most games dosent even release on the PC? Whatcha talking about Willis!? The PC platform has more games than any other platform. If you're refering to games like Alan Wake and/or Gears or Halo etc. Its not because there's pircay. Its because MS wants to define their console.

- GFWL gets more support and major exclusives? What are these exclusives you're talking about? Havent seen anything that supports that claim? One or two games wont steal people from Steam. And the support is good and all, but if you do a google search of GFWL, you'll see that 9 out of 10 links are hate threads towards GFWL and problems with the service.

- MMORPG dosent count towards PC Gaming? Should Demon's Souls, Borderlands, Mass Effect, Dragon Age not be included in the term gaming aswell? RPGs are just a linear version of MMORPG. Dosen't demand any more skill than an MMO, id say its more likely the other way around. And what's this damage you're talking about? MMOs is probably the most popular genre out there, and with micro transactions and subscribtion fee's, it has most likely been a huge help to the PC devs.

- GFWL gaining on Steam? Not likely. Steam is the No1 pc game service, it expanded to MAC and is soon to be found on consoles. GFWL isn't even close. No matter how much support they get, MS will never invest that amount of effort into making GFWL a competitor to Steam. And alot of GFWL titles released in 2009 and 2010 dosent even use the Live feature. GFWL also had like 70 released in total between ´09 and ´10, while steam had 350'ish in the same period. The Xbox 360 had about 200 games in that time frame. Which goes to show that the statement of games not making it to the PC is just selective perception from a personal point of view, and prefrence.  

 

Well yes, PC does have the most releases. If you're willing to dignify indie games. And it still does get a fair share of support from major devlopers. But many major releases don't come to the PC. Many also tend to come late, likely due to piracy. There is money to be made on the PC, but the real money is in consoles for many major developers.

I'm not saying GFWL will steal customers per se. But I do believe they'll become a major competitor and will steal some market share. I use both services personally but I mostly just buy whats on sale. On occasion GFWL has good deals.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

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Alby_da_Wolf said:

I like how PC and its unbeatable value and offer width make Mr Puggsly feel so butthurt and sour grapes!   


Well I take advantage of those deals as well. I have a nice collection of games on Steam.

But lets face it, its a reflection the piracy problem.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Mr Puggsly said:

Digital download sales have grown while retail sales are likely shrinking. I'd also assume piracy has grown tremendously with Torrents.

Safe bet that Steam is doing well considering its the most popular digital download service for PC games. But I highly doubt its the big earner you and shio thinks.

In my opinion, GFWL is still a work in progress. They are getting more support, new games are being added to the library, and MS will be releasing some major games that will be exclusive to GFWL. Is this not proof they are trying to get the service off the ground?

Also, a lot of people already have GFWL already installed on their computers. Lets bear in mind quite a few popular games have require it.

PC piracy has grown but that doesn't always equate to lost sales, especially for multiplayer games. Either way we won't know for Steam's profitability unless Valve decides to release numbers.

As for GFWL, I don't see it doing well for the simple fact that this isn't the first time MS have said they're supporting PC, and all previous attempts were half-hearted and did more damage than good. Can it improve? Yes, but excuse us if we're just not convinced by MS' claims yet, and there is a lot of negative PR to combat.

Also, no-one really has GFWL installed on their computer as it's integrated into the games that needed it. At present there isn't an external app/service other than the marketplace, which in itself is another drawback as you have to exit a game and sign-out and load up a new game before signing in again. MS have a long way to go in the PC space...



Mr Puggsly said:
shio said:
Mr Puggsly said:
shio said:

I bought Half-Life for $0.99, and many other cool games for that price on Steam. I bought Mass Effect and Bioshock for $5, I bought Borderlands for $10, Witcher for $10, Mount & Blade for $7.50, Eve Online for $2, L4D2 for $13, Portal for $0, Zeno Clash with a 50% discount BEFORE IT WAS RELEASED, etc...

Wowzers, you spend all that money! Developers must be getting rich with all your nickels and dimes!

Steam must make billions getting their share of that too...

Actually yes, somehow those PC developers are all making huge amount of revenue AND growing. New, independent developers are forming and growing on PC, while they're dying on consoles. 

How many new, independent console developers have made AAA games this generation?

You see, even though I bought The Witcher at $10 (more around $11), they made as much money as the average console developer makes from a $60 console game!! Publishers, retailers, distributors, marketing, etc... are all taking a piece of developers' money on consoles. Which is why there's so little AAA independent developers on consoles these days.

Huge amount of revenue? Probably not. Atleast not huge for major developers.

I'd be willing to agree independent developers are still going strong on PCs. They are also going strong on services like PSN and XBLA. But we both know consoles are generally the bread and butter for major and big budget releases.

Thing is, revenue is high on the consoles, yet profitability is ultimately quite low.

The costs of consoles (namely HD) games has been on the rise, yet the profit margins haven't really improved and even Activision, after MW2 was released was only just in the Black. Instead it was Blizzard with all the PC based profit that propped them up.

The costs of PC games is as low as ever (no royalties to platform holders) yet the profitability of the titles has increased due to digital download. If you have a first-party download service like EA or Valve then the profitability is even higher.

Starcraft 2 has shown it's possible for PC games to sell bucket loads, and with higher profit margins you can get your money back with lower sales than on consoles.



shio said:
slowmo said:
shio said:

2003

Valve: Hey Microsoft, wanna partner with us to make a service that could put PC Gaming over the top?

Microsoft: No, your idea is 10 years too soon. We don't want to have anything with you guys.

Valve: You are losing a great opportunity.

Microsoft: Whatever, we are going to consoles. We aren't focused on PC games.

2006

Microsoft: How's business?

Valve: Steam is all over. And you guys said it couldn't be done.

Microsoft: But aren't you giving Steam for free?

Valve: Yeah, which is why getting million of new costumers.

Microsoft: Whatever, PC games don't sell. Consoles are where the money's at.

Valve: But didn't you lose billions with the Xbox?!

Microsoft: Yes, but our idea was to win the console industry with the Xbox 360, not the original Xbox.

2007

Microsoft: Hey Valve, I'm launching GFWL! It will be a stronghold for PC gaming.

Valve: Cool, but what is GFWL?

Microsoft: It's like Xbox Live for PC, and you to pay to use it too.

Valve: What the hell?! PC Gamers won't pay for GFWL ever!

Microsoft: Whatever, we forced millions of console gamers to pay for nothing, PC gamers will too.

Valve: It won't work. PC gamers can't be forced to use GFWL.

Microsoft: We'll win, many big publishers  are already supporting us.

2009

Valve: So how's GFWL?

Microsoft: Badly. No one paid for it, so we had to make GFWL free.

Valve: I told you.

Microsoft: Whatever, PC Gaming is dying. We're closing down all our PC studios.

Valve: WTF?! That's insane! You'll regret this.

Microsoft: PC Gaming is dying, and the money's on consoles.

Valve: You should stop reading NPD numbers...

2010

Microsoft: *reads PR statement* "PC Gaming is important to us. We are always committed to PC Gaming"

Valve: Huh?!

Microsoft: We are coming back in full force to PC Gaming! We are releasing new games on PC, and GFWL will be a stronghold for PC Gaming.

Valve: I've heard this before. Have you even released anything in the past 3 years on PC?

Microsoft: No, "but we are committed..."

Valve: Dude, look:
- You lost billions with the original Xbox.
- You are losing billions with the Xbox 360, and are nowhere near the Wii.
- You closed all your PC studios.
- GFWL hasn't improved since launch and is still complete crap.
- All publishers that supported GFWL have abandoned you, and came over to Steam instead.
- You haven't released a PC game for years, and won't release before 2011 (if at all).

Microsoft: We thought PC Gaming was dying...

Valve: PC was the only platform to grow in 2009, and 2010 so far. It has always been growing. It was your fault for only reading NPD, and now Steam is so big that we are on MAC now. HAHAHAHA!!!!



Which explains why Valve are suddenly focusing on the PS3??? 

I like how you are quick to focus on Microsofts money making agenda then seem to forget 99% of commercially available Steam games are overpriced compared to their retail counterparts.

Given you have no intention of ever trying xbox live I think you're input in this thread is of little worth personally.

I already tried Xbox Live, my brother had an X360. Steam, and other DD services, are far better than retail stores:

  • They can have as many games as they want, without the worry of shelf space.
  • They make dozens of awesome deals every week. Tell me where you can buy on retail Mass Effect and Bioshock for $5, 30 THQ games for only $50, and every single game made by Bethesda and id Soft for $60 combined(Oblivion DLC, Morrowind, all Quake games, all Doom games, Fallout 3 DLC, etc...).
  • They allow for the release of games priced below $30. It's almost impossible to release a PC game on retail if the game is cheap.
  • Sorry, but there's many reasons why Steam is the juggernaut it is today.

    Mr Puggsly said:

    Microsoft: You showed us Valve. PC gaming now dominates the gaming industry!

    Valve: Haha! Yeah right, people don't buy PC games. Worst of all, the most popular PC games don't even come to Steam.

    Microsoft: SAY WHAT!!! You mean you don't get any of that World of Warcraft, The Sims, or Stracraft money?

    Valve: Not a fucking penny!

    Microsoft: PC gaming is growing... but its just bullcrap like Farmgames, casual crap, and MMOs.

    Valve: Yeah pretty much. So how is GFWL going?

    Microsoft: Shitty ofcourse, its PC gaming. How else could it go?

    Valve: You know, we should have got together and made video cards. Every video card sold just goes to pirated games anyway.

    Microsoft: True dat!

    It's funny you're making Valve complain about Steam. Not only are they making billions, but they are also doing it WITHOUT Starcraft, World of Warcraft AND The Sims!!!

    You just made up stuff because you can't find a single argument against what I wrote. The thing is, everything I wrote comes from truth:

    2003:

  • Valve did go to Microsoft to talk about making Steam, and Microsoft did refuse and say it was 10 years too early. Gabe Newell said it in an interview.
  • Since going to consoles they stopped focusing on PC games.
  • 2006

  • Steam is starting to become a force and for FREE, while Xbox Live is still a paying service.
  • With the release of the Wii and PS3, more and more people are saying PC Gaming is dying while looking at NPD sales.
  • 2007

  • Microsoft launches GFWL to get a hold on PC Gaming. Many of the PC Gaming community predicted it to fail miserably.
  • GFWL initially had the support of many publishers, which used GFWL integration in their games.
  • 2009

  • GFWL failed miserably, forced Microsoft to make it free.
  • Microsoft closed down all their major PC studios, among them was the Ensemble, ACES and FASA studios, which made multi-million selling series like Age of Empire, Mechwarrior and Flight Simulator.
  • More concentration on NPD, stating PC Gaming is dying because many people only looked at retail numbers.
  • 2010

  • Microsoft released several press releases stating that PC Gaming was important to them, although they haven't done anything to support that so far.
  • They haven't released an relevant title on PC in the past 3 years, and won't release until 2011 (if at all).
  • GFWL is still crap, and has barely been improved.
  • Most publishers that supported GFWL have abandoned them, and instead started supporting Steam. Read this thread: PC Devs Abandoning Microsoft for Valve.
  • Xbox and Xbox 360 have both lost billions.
  • The only thing that you can argue is the date when Valve and Microsoft talked about making Steam. I don't know when the meeting happened, so I put it in 2003 just for comedic value.

    Mr Puggsly said:
    Alby_da_Wolf said:
    Mr Puggsly said:
    NJ5 said:


    Valve: We've been profiting since like, forever. Didn't you lose billions of dollars in the console business?

    Microsoft: ....

    Microsoft: Could you make money not depending on MS products?

    Valve: ...

    This is a question whose MS really doesn't want to know the answer...

    Right, Windows and 360 haven't been the bread and butter of Valve.

    If Windows didn't exist, then it would be another OS. Don't kid yourself. Who knows, maybe then Linux-based OS'es would have a shot at being mainstream, which would probably be far better than Windows.

    As for the X360, Gabe Newell has always said that they release their games there just for extra change. It's so easy to port from PC to Xbox 360, that it's almost free money. Xbox 360 is just a pocket with coins compared to what they make on Steam.

    The reason they're now supporting PS3 is that Sony allowed Portal 2 with some Steam integration.


    Dude, I've used Steam, it's buggy as heck, it's slow, and it slowed my PC WAY down.



    Past Avatar picture!!!

    Don't forget your helmet there, Master Chief!

    ironman said:


    Dude, I've used Steam, it's buggy as heck, it's slow, and it slowed my PC WAY down.


    I'm gonna guess you either have a slow computer or tried it out a good few years ago. There have been many updates to Steam which have not only added features but made it less process intense and buggy.