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Forums - General - The MYTH of American Islamophobia

TheRealMafoo said:
Rath said:

If I don't hate Islam then I must be ok with my country having Sharia law? Completely doesn't follow. A lot of moderate Muslims don't even want Sharia law.


But what about the ones that do? At what point, do you stop defending a religion, and start defending freedom?

What will it take for you to look at a particular Muslim and say "Your not allowed to do that in the name of your religion".

I realize bombing something counts, but is anything short of that OK?

People have the freedom to hate freedom.

It is only at the point where somebody infringes on the rights of others that they should not be allowed to do something. This includes discrimination in jobs, restricting freedom of movement on public land, preventing free-speech etcetera.

It doesn't in my opinion include them from building this Islamic centre, even if they do mean it as a giant 'Fuck You' to America. That doesn't actually infringe upon others rights, there is no human right to not be offended.



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Rath said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Rath said:

If I don't hate Islam then I must be ok with my country having Sharia law? Completely doesn't follow. A lot of moderate Muslims don't even want Sharia law.


But what about the ones that do? At what point, do you stop defending a religion, and start defending freedom?

What will it take for you to look at a particular Muslim and say "Your not allowed to do that in the name of your religion".

I realize bombing something counts, but is anything short of that OK?

People have the freedom to hate freedom.

It is only at the point where somebody infringes on the rights of others that they should not be allowed to do something. This includes discrimination in jobs, restricting freedom of movement on public land, preventing free-speech etcetera.

It doesn't in my opinion include them from building this Islamic centre, even if they do mean it as a giant 'Fuck You' to America. That doesn't actually infringe upon others rights, there is no human right to not be offended.

lol, then what are you getting upset about?

No one is saying they can't build it, it's just some are saying they hate them for it. You're all for peoples freedom to hate, as long as it doesn't infringe on peoples rights.

You should be on the side of the people who don't want this thing to go up, but are doing nothing legally to stop them. You should be defending there rights to hate Muslims. All Muslims if they want to.

I mean it's there freedom to do so, right?



TheRealMafoo said:

I want to take away your freedom to destroy liberty. That's what We did to the British when we founded this country.

How about we change the players...

Let's say I started a religious sect, and called it "The Christian Nazi Church of God". My church believed that for the US to be under True law, that only Christians could hold office, and no Muslim or Jew should be allowed to step foot into Washington DC. This is this the way, though my Christian god, I wished my country to become.

I found the highest concentration of Jews in the US (somewhere in New York), and I started building my 15 story church, finished with a 100 foot Swastika and Cross on the top.

Would you think everyone who is against this church, is anti-Christian? Would you think not helping there vision of a perfect world be suppression of freedom?

Would you fight for there religious equality?

Your comparing a Cultural Community Centre with a single floor dedicated to a Mosque, to a Racist organisation that promotes hatred and ignorance. Good job. Your impying that the centre being built is only being done to promote something negative, that they are going to somehow take something away from people and cause some sort of irrational disturbance. It's not, it's a community centre open to everyone, the religious portion of this building is a religion that promotes peace and guidance. I'm atheist, but I'm not ignorant of the religions of others, most of the people in this thread are obviously ignorant.

Also, about your earlier post about going to a baseball game and feeling so lovely in a land of tolerance and awesomeness. Every time my dad has to go to he US on business he is stopped in the airport, asked to strip and is searched much more harshly then everyone else. I would have let it slide if it only happened once, but three times is ridiculous. My mum went to Hawaii and LA, she went through a similar ordeal. That's not cool. I'm glad your life in the US has worked out for you, but not everyone's going to share your experience. I've known people that have lost mobility in their arms, had their heads cracked open and have lost sight in one of their eyes, just because they are Muslim. That's in Australia, Australia is also meant to be much more tolerant than the US. I haven't got much choice but to jump to conclusions when I read articles of similar things happening in the US.

 

Not Related to you: How are so many people in this thread not banned? Muslims are like Nazis, Muslims are killers, Islam promotes murder, Islam is a cult, promoting the genocide of Muslims. This is like the third thread with so much hate filled rubbish in it and no one ever get's banned.



Bet with Conegamer and AussieGecko that the PS3 will have more exclusives in 2011 than the Wii or 360... or something.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3879752

Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:

-snip-

I understand what you're saying kasz, and I understand that the media is full of hate/fear mongering.

But if I knew someone who did this, I would slap the shit out of them.

They talk like the mosque is a victory symbol. It's not. It's just another day in NYC. They want to put it there because it's prime real-estate. That area is so busy and the people who do business there are of every race and creed, and islam, being the harsh mistress that it is, requires more dedication. You're saying that business men in that area have no right to worship?

It has nothing to do with victory or anything. It's an open space.

Sure there will be people who take offense, but it's a silly thing to take offense over.

The islamic people who are here are seeking refuge. The sunni and shiites and other terrorist groups terrorize everyone, not just americans. Peole leave iraq and iran and come here to get away. The mosque is not a symbol of victory for muslims. It is American.

If a child were to say, daddy why is there a mosque right next to ground zero? The answer should be, "because we are the greatest country in the world, and nothing will ever stop us from protecting our friends and preserving the rights of every man, woman, and child"

Once again... you are simply not looking at it correctly.

If, radical Christians killed your daughter in an abortion clinic bombing near your work.

How would you feel about an Church being put up right next to said ruins that you have to drive by every day?


The mosque being there will be a sign of america's greatness.

But the greatness that we even protect the rights of people when they use those rights to be insensitive assholes.

The same as the KKK's right to throwing racist protests is a sign of America's greatness.

 

Building a giant grand church near an abortion clinic would be a douchebag move, or a burned down mosque by fundamental christians.   This is no different.   Except for media reaction.

Had Christian fundamentalists destroyed a building and killed people... and christian leaders built a huge 15 story church wthin visibility...

the Media would do nothing but complain about why it coudn't be moved.

and if it's not build over protest it would be a great recruiting tool for extremest

they could say see American hate all forms of Islam

you need to not asociate all Islam with the terroist attacks

just like you need to not associat all churches with abortion clinic bombings

 



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
PR- 397-10
August 24, 2010

MAYOR BLOOMBERG HOSTS ANNUAL RAMADAN IFTAR DINNER AT GRACIE MANSION

The following are Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg's remarks as delivered.

"Well, good evening, and Ramadan Kareem, and I want to welcome everyone to our annual Ramadan Iftar at Gracie Mansion. 

"We call this 'The People's House,' because it belongs to all 8.4 million New Yorkers who call this city home. And people of every race and religion, every background and belief. And we celebrate that diversity here in this house with gatherings like this one.

"And for me, whether it's marking St. Patrick's Day or Harlem Week or any other occasion, these gatherings are always a powerful reminder of what makes our city so strong and our country so great.

"You know, America is a nation of immigrants, and I think it's fair to say no place opens its doors more widely to the world than New York City. America is the land of opportunity, and I think it's fair to say no place offers its residents more opportunity to pursue their dreams than New York City. And America is a beacon of freedom, and I think it's fair to say no place defends those freedoms more fervently, or has been attacked for those freedoms more ferociously, than New York City.

"In recent weeks, a debate has arisen that I believe cuts to the core of who we are as a city and a country. The proposal to build a mosque and community center in Lower Manhattan has created a national conversation on religion in America, and since Ramadan offers a time for reflection, I wanted to take a few minutes to reflect on that very subject.

"There are people of good will on both sides of the debate, and I would hope that everyone can carry on a dialogue in a civil and respectful way. In fact, I think most people now agree on two fundamental issues: First, that Muslims have a constitutional right to build a mosque in Lower Manhattan and second, that the site of the World Trade Center is hallowed ground. And the only question we face is: how do we honor that hallowed ground?

"The wounds of 9/11 are still very much with us. And I know that is true for Talat Hamdani, who is here with us tonight, and who lost her son, Salman Hamdani, on 9/11. There will always be a hole in our hearts for the men and women who perished that day. 

"After the attacks, some argued - including some of those who lost loved ones - that the entire site should be reserved for a memorial. But we decided - together, as a city - that the best way to honor all those we lost, and to repudiate our enemies, was to build a moving memorial and to rebuild the site.

"We wanted the site to be an inspiring reminder to the world that this city will never forget our dead and never stop living. We vowed to bring Lower Manhattan back - stronger than ever - as a symbol of our defiance and I think it's fair to say we have. Today, it is more of a community neighborhood than ever before, with more people than ever living, working, playing and praying there.

"But if we say that a mosque or a community center should not be built near the perimeter of the World Trade Center site, we would compromise our commitment to fighting terror with freedom.

"We would undercut the values and principles that so many heroes died protecting. We would feed the false impressions that some Americans have about Muslims. We would send a signal around the world that Muslim Americans may be equal in the eyes of the law, but separate in the eyes of their countrymen. And we would hand a valuable propaganda tool to terrorist recruiters, who spread the fallacy that America is at war with Islam.

"Islam did not attack the World Trade Center - Al-Qaeda did. To implicate all of Islam for the actions of a few who twisted a great religion is unfair and un-American. Today we are not at war with Islam - we are at war with Al-Qaeda and other extremists who hate freedom.

"At this very moment, there are young Americans - some of them Muslims - standing freedoms' watch in Iraq and Afghanistan, and around the world. A couple here tonight, Sakibeh and Asaad Mustafa, have children who have served our country overseas and after 9/11, one of them aided in the recovery efforts at Ground Zero. And I'd like to ask them to stand, so we can show our appreciation. There you go. Thank you.

"The members of our military are men and women at arms - battling for hearts and minds. And their greatest weapon in that fight is the strength of our American values, which have already inspired people around the world. If we do not practice here at home what we preach abroad - if we do not lead by example - we undermine our soldiers. We undermine our foreign policy objectives. And we undermine our national security.

"In a different era, with different international challenges facing the country, President Kennedy's Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, explained to Congress why it is so important for us to live up to our ideals here at home. Dean Rusk said, 'The United States is widely regarded as the home of democracy and the leader of the struggle for freedom, for human rights, for human dignity. We are expected to be the model.'

"We are expected to be the model. Nearly a half-century later, his words remain true. In battling our enemies, we cannot rely entirely on the courage of our soldiers or the competence of our diplomats. We all have to do our part.

"Just as we fought communism by showing the world the power of free markets and free elections, so must we fight terrorism by showing the world the power of religious freedom and cultural tolerance. Freedom and tolerance will always defeat tyranny and terrorism - and that's the great lesson of the 20th century, and we must not abandon it here in the 21st.

"Now I understand the impulse to find another location for the mosque and community center. I understand the pain of those who are motivated by loss too terrible to contemplate. And there are people of every faith - including, perhaps, some in this room - who are hoping that a compromise will end the debate.

"But it won't. The question will then become, how big should the 'no-mosque zone' be around the World Trade Center site? There is already a mosque four blocks away. Should it be moved?

"This is a test of our commitment to American values. We have to have the courage of our convictions. We must do what is right, not what is easy. And we must put our faith in the freedoms that have sustained our great country for more than 200 years.

"Now, I know that many in this room are disturbed and dispirited by the debate. But it's worth keeping some perspective on the matter. The first colonial settlers came to these shores seeking religious liberty and the founding fathers wrote a constitution that guaranteed it. They made sure that in this country government would not be permitted to choose between religions or favor one over another.  

"Nonetheless, it was not so long ago that Jews and Catholics had to overcome stereotypes and build bridges to those who viewed them with suspicion and less than fully American. In 1960, many Americans feared that John F. Kennedy would impose papal law on America. But through his example, he taught us that piety to a minority religion is no obstacle to patriotism. It is a lesson I think that needs updating today, and it is our responsibility to accept the challenge.

"Before closing, let me just add one final thought: Imam Rauf, who is now overseas promoting America and American values, has been put under a media microscope. Each of us may strongly agree or strongly disagree with particular statements that he has made. And that's how it should be - this is New York City.

"And while a few of his statements have received a lot of attention, I would like to read you something that he said that you may not have heard. At an interfaith memorial service for the martyred journalist Daniel Pearl, Imam Rauf said, quote, 'If to be a Jew means to say with all one's heart, mind, and soul: Shma` Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adonai Ehad; Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One, not only today I am a Jew, I have always been one.'

He then continued to say, 'If to be a Christian is to love the Lord our God with all of my heart, mind and soul, and to love for my fellow human being what I love for myself, then not only am I a Christian, but I have always been one.'

"In that spirit, let me declare that we in New York are Jews and Christians and Muslims, and we always have been. And above all of that, we are Americans, each with an equal right to worship and pray where we choose. There is nowhere in the five boroughs of New York City that is off limits to any religion.

"By affirming that basic idea, we will honor America's values and we will keep New York the most open, diverse, tolerant, and free city in the world. Thank you and enjoy."



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TheRealMafoo said:
johnsobas said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Rath said:

If I don't hate Islam then I must be ok with my country having Sharia law? Completely doesn't follow. A lot of moderate Muslims don't even want Sharia law.


But what about the ones that do? At what point, do you stop defending a religion, and start defending freedom?

What will it take for you to look at a particular Muslim and say "Your not allowed to do that in the name of your religion".

I realize bombing something counts, but is anything short of that OK?


well obviously breaking the law is the point at which it is not OK, whenever that takes place.  Defending freedom is exactly what people are doing here, it's ironic that you want to protect our freedom by taking it away.  


I want to take away your freedom to destroy liberty. That's what We did to the British when we founded this country.

How about we change the players...

Let's say I started a religious sect, and called it "The Christian Nazi Church of God". My church believed that for the US to be under True law, that only Christians could hold office, and no Muslim or Jew should be allowed to step foot into Washington DC. This is this the way, though my Christian god, I wished my country to become.

I found the highest concentration of Jews in the US (somewhere in New York), and I started building my 15 story church, finished with a 100 foot Swastika and Cross on the top.

Would you think everyone who is against this church, is anti-Christian? Would you think not helping there vision of a perfect world be suppression of freedom?

Would you fight for there religious equality?

As long as they don't break the law or infringe on others rights there is really nothing wrong with it.  I'm sure you can find plenty of cults that say anti-american things, anti-whatever you want to make of it (which islam is not).  They can only do damage if you let them, they can only take over your law and courts if you let them.  If they are that good that they can convince enough Americans to join their cult, put democratically elected politicians in power, and make amendments to the constitution then the problem is not the cult itself, it is the American people.  Like i said if they are within the laws of the land, and don't infringe on others rights then there shouldn't  be a problem.



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

Great clip with Irshad Manji, the author of The Trouble with Islam Today:

Here are my favorite excerpts:

Irshad Manji: 73% of Muslim Americans say that they have never experienced an act of discrimination on American Soil. 73%, we couldn't even come close to those numbers in parts of Europe.

Irshad Manji: Once again, over and over, moderate Muslims themselves have failed to be clear with the American people about who is a terrorist and who's not. It's always about US foreign policy that produces terrorism rather than we Muslims taking responsibility for ourselves as well.

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy



johnsobas said:
TheRealMafoo said:
johnsobas said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Rath said:

If I don't hate Islam then I must be ok with my country having Sharia law? Completely doesn't follow. A lot of moderate Muslims don't even want Sharia law.


But what about the ones that do? At what point, do you stop defending a religion, and start defending freedom?

What will it take for you to look at a particular Muslim and say "Your not allowed to do that in the name of your religion".

I realize bombing something counts, but is anything short of that OK?


well obviously breaking the law is the point at which it is not OK, whenever that takes place.  Defending freedom is exactly what people are doing here, it's ironic that you want to protect our freedom by taking it away.  


I want to take away your freedom to destroy liberty. That's what We did to the British when we founded this country.

How about we change the players...

Let's say I started a religious sect, and called it "The Christian Nazi Church of God". My church believed that for the US to be under True law, that only Christians could hold office, and no Muslim or Jew should be allowed to step foot into Washington DC. This is this the way, though my Christian god, I wished my country to become.

I found the highest concentration of Jews in the US (somewhere in New York), and I started building my 15 story church, finished with a 100 foot Swastika and Cross on the top.

Would you think everyone who is against this church, is anti-Christian? Would you think not helping there vision of a perfect world be suppression of freedom?

Would you fight for there religious equality?

As long as they don't break the law or infringe on others rights there is really nothing wrong with it.  I'm sure you can find plenty of cults that say anti-american things, anti-whatever you want to make of it (which islam is not).  They can only do damage if you let them, they can only take over your law and courts if you let them.  If they are that good that they can convince enough Americans to join their cult, put democratically elected politicians in power, and make amendments to the constitution then the problem is not the cult itself, it is the American people.  Like i said if they are within the laws of the land, and don't infringe on others rights then there shouldn't  be a problem.


Fair enough. This is actually a good answer. I guess I am just pissed off that what I put in bold, has already been done, but not in the name of religion. In the name of socialism.

I tire of watching our country be destroyed by extremism, that I am willing to stop a different kind of extremism at a much earlier phase of growth then I guess I should.



 

"So it is irrelevant that the 99% of international terrorists come from Saudi Arabia (with a decent number from Pakistan too)? It is irrelevant that they are given free reign to move through middle eastern countries and are not subject to any laws that would hinder their funding within their home country? It is irrelevant that America is giving their leaders money for oil which in turn is being given to these people who bring it across the borders to terrorist camps? It is irrelevant that there are any number of terrorist organizations operating within Saudi Arabia with free reign? It is irrelevant that we gave the Taliban and subsequently Osama the training required to plan out these attacks?

This is not about liberals or conservatives, these are just words given to us by greedy parties to conform us into neat little ideologies. Think for yourself, don't let your party think for you. America is the land of the free and just for its own people, for everyone else its quite a different story, just read a little history and you will see why."

 

Yes?   Those are in fact... completely irrelevent... and all stuff I already knew.  Like 75-80% of that is totally out of our hands anyway.

Afghanistan was totally the right place to invade if you were going to invade anybody.  (Though why we invade... got me.  Creating a giant storm in the entire country can't make it easier to find people... I mean heck Bin Laden is still out there.)

If someone starts shooting at you, it doesn't matter if you gave them the gun or not.  You are going to react in the same way. 

I mean... I'm really failing to see your point here.   You're also leaving out England, Russia and France.  

Really England probably screwed up the middle east waaaay worse then anything the US did. 

 

Regardless, i fail to see how any of this is relevent to the fact that one group of people wants to build something in an area that will likely traumitize another group of people for no good reason.



Turns out this Omar Rivera guy was just super drunk and, despite early reports, did not yell anti-Muslim slurs. As an Islamophobe, I demand an apology!

(I absolutely love this article, too. "Yeah, okay, this wasn't an anti-Muslim incident... but still!!!!!!")