what the eff happened here?

the thread went into Oblivion..... literally

That metaphor actually sounds kinda cool.

I personally think Sony saw a gap in the market, we can bring in a Wii like controller and get some Wii users to upgrade NOW, Why you might ask? Because next Nintendo will bring out a Wii HD with wiimote, and then why would you consider moving to a PS3/Xbox (unless there is a specific game). The opportunity would be lost.

My first console this generation was a Wii, I was excited by the idea of a responsive controller that would mimic my every move (like the idea of playing Tennis and the controller really having an impact), only to find that the controller was effectively cheating (flick of the wrist and it does the same). Not only that the graphics/games are subpar to the AAA games of the current HD twins. Now i moved up to the PS3/Xbox. But think about all those other possible users who might also want to upgrade. Sony wanted to get in before the Wii 1.5/2, so then there is at least an excuse to get people to upgrade (however small that group might be).

As far as sales go, I think Kinect will definately sell more initially, only because of the total PR rubbish that MS has sprouted, right from the 2009 E3 show.  People (general users) are still saying it will work with eye movement, finger movement, Minority report style movement, which it wont, but the general public dont generally read forums and understand this just isnt possible... the general public are not as tech savy as the rest of us.

Move will be a slow burner and i think will do OK, certainly with those that already have the console, it might convince people to upgrade from the Wii, but i dont expect massive numbers.

Games wise, well Move has the better range of games for the controller, while Kinect only has two games of note, Kinectimals (which does look nice) and Dance Central. Neither are revolutionary (though both look great which is important), but will help sell the console, while the rest is pretty poor from a core gaming point of view (imho). Also i doubt very much that Kinect (in this product release) will be able to do any games for the hardcore gamer.

You also have to consider just because it sells, what happens people buy one or two games, consider it rubbish and doesnt buy any more. Its still a success right because they sold a console? Or is it about the amount of Move/Kinect title sales that matter? or is it how many 3rd parties support it?

So I guess the OP said move will fail, but actually there are a number of levels of failure depending on your point of view. We can wait and see until one sells more than the other, but if thats how you judge failure, then personally i think that is wrong.

On a final note (sorry this is so long :) The comment by one user (sorry cannot recall the name), that if Move sales dont set the world alight would affect 3rd parties, I actually dont think it will. If moves sells in the low millions, but implementing it in your game and only takes a few weeks, seriously, I would implement it, because it might mean a few tens of thousands maybe even 100,000 more sales (who knows). Is 5 weeks work to add support that much effort (and it will be less once you have learnt the libraries from your first implementation). While Kinect is going to be alot harder for 3rd parties to add in a normal game you might be developing.

Socem and those hardcore games that support Move controls along with normal controls, I didn't mean them when I said shovelware. I meant the games that need Move and I clarified it.

"The Fight" is garbage, it got horrible hands-on impressions. "Time Crisis Move", I can't imagine gamers paying for that one when they already have games like Uncharted and God of War 3. "Heroes on the Move, I haven't checked that out thoroughly but I will in a sec.

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter that Kinect has some technical issues such as lag. Wii had them too in the beginning but it didn't prevent them from selling to casuals.

When people have tried Kinect they walk away with a smile on their face, while comments from people who experienced Move usually are "it was kinda neat".

Sorcery is a quality title and even some people on this forum will appreciate it. But don't come tell me it's an important game. No disrespect to Harry Potter but Sorcery is kinda like Harry Potter.

You are right, I'm very cautious about bets after my Heavy Rain bet.

a. I meant Move-only games. Not hardcore games with Move support. Obviously KZ3 and HR are superb games but we don't know yet if Move controls will augment the experience. It could also feel tacked on.

b. Dont u get that feeling? I get a strong feeling Sony don't believe Move will sell much. Their whole presentation of Move from the beginning has felt so uninspired. Plus like Pristine said a couple of posts above, Move will be picked by a few already-fans of Sony, but won't attract any casuals as it's too late in the gen to do Wii motion controls only with HD graphics.

c. Good point.

d. What do you mean I took the cake? I don't see a cake.

I dont see how it is a negative if a game has been made to fully support move or is a game from scratch to work on move, certainly in the case of KZ3 or Socom. Its not like they have just tacked it on as a mini game, its how you can control the game fully with it.  I think that is the thing that you are missing Slime.

To me that is just like "this is a move released game". While something like the Harry Potter Kinect, is an extra mini game addon which is exactly what you are on about Slime. A game that doesnt fully support the control method. So i have to say i am very confused at your ramblings :)

@slimbeast: here is your answer to The Fight and keep in mind this is the 60% build

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/18/preview-the-fight/

Socom was made ground up with Move in mind...that is all

and lol what? I know you're a bit desperate to prove your point here slimbeast but come ONNNN! kinect people walk away with smiles but Move users don't? Have you even seen any hands on previews or user feedback lately? GDC was a while ago mate...reactions ahev changed a lot by GC

ugh don't come to tell you what exactly? that one of the most talked about games at E3 is not big? one of the games whose previews had nothing but praise is not big? jsut becaue it has a guy with a stick it's  like harry potter? do all of us a favor and go check gameplay of HP for Kienct vs Sorcery for Move...you just can't be taken seriously now

again if you are so confident it's a small game and won't sell more than 250k..let's bet on it! :) walk the walk or are you just talk

The first hands-on preview of The Fight that came up on Google:

"Like all of the games that we played during this Beta event, The Fight: Lights Out isn't the finished article, but it's hard to see just how they can improve the game apart from starting from scratch. Move will have a great boxing game one day, but this isn’t going to be it."
http://gaming.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=25767

Kinect has had some so and so previews, yes I know, but obviously that will happen when it's such a non-hardcore device. But that's not the point. It doesn't matter if we, hardcore gamers, prefer classic controllers over motion controls, or that we feel stupid jumping in front of a dance game. The point is casuals will love Kinect and that's what I mean when I say that we all know this deep within us.

This is my lowest? It must be pretty damn low then.

Sorry but I didn't know this was controversial. I honestly thought most gamers including Sony fans weren't enthusiastic about Move.

I didn't say Move support for hardcore games is negative. I was just clarifying that when I said "shovelware" I meant the Move exclusive lineup (minus Sorcery).

Again, my argument is that the success of neither the Move or Kinect will depend on hardcore gamers. So it simply doesn't matter if Socum and KZ3 gets nice Move support because I don't belive that's enough for the hardcore gamers to buy Move in large numbers.

I didn't know there was a Harry Potter game for Kinect. I just used the analogy to show that Sorcery, while being a nice looking game, isn't an important title. Think of it as say... 3D Dot Heroes or Lil King's Story. A nice little game but hardly has any significance for hardware sales.

I know what you are trying to say, but i think thats the wrong way to look at it personally. You need to take Move as a whole, what works with it and what doesnt, what is only a mini game, what is full support. So to exclude Socom and KZ3, LP2, RE Gold because they are not move only is folly.

The fighting game actually looks pretty good, and the video i saw the other day, it seemed pretty accurate/fast.

Yes the other games are not my cup of tea, but why spend 1 year making a total hardcore game that will be move only, that would be a mistake, while making a AAA game support Move is a much better business decision and will make the current owners of the PS3 happier about buying Move.

While Kinect at the moment is ignoring the current user base and going straight for casual users, either thats a mistake from MS, they dont care, or they just cant figure out how to get it into a core AAA game.

The harry potter game is using a normal controller and has (as far as i understand it) a level/area that uses kinect so its not the whole game (again as far as i know)... though its not a pretty sight at the moment-  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTDOdKSqFDQ - note the sound is very quiet on it.