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Forums - General Discussion - Mafia Round 19 - Game Thread

noname2200 on 20 August 2010
theprof00 said:

1) Listen, if there is a mafia roleblocker, which is not beyond reason, they can block hat.

2) Two options then remain. If they do have their own recruiter, they could take heph, OR, if they don't they can just kill heph. 

3) Or, more cunningly, they could just kill hat, because we will doctor heph thinking that he will become town, and then kill heph the next night.


1) If this happens, we'll lynch Hephaestos.  No skin off our backs.

2) Neither of these hurts the town that much: if it's the former, we lynch him.  If it's the latter, we lose a serial killer.

3) Hatmoza's expendable once he's completed his task, a fact even he will acknowledge.  Assuming everything checks out, the doctor should protect hephaestos instead of hatmoza tonight, and presumably he will continue to protect hephaestos after that.

I don't see what the problem is.



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Hephaestos on 20 August 2010
theprof00 said:
c03n3nj0 said:

theprof00 said:

I didn't mean that he IS a vigilante, but that he wants to kill as if he were a vigilante. Why else would he explain his killing of patapon. He didn't mean to. He is in control of his killing and could kill for us regardless of whether he is cured. 

And he will do this for us simply because HE CANNOT WIN at this point. He is doomed. Even if he joins us, we will lose because we will be focusing on protecting a killing role rather than ourselves. Having a killing role does not help us unless we know who mafia are.

He will kill for us for a spiritual victory. There is no other option.

LOOK if they don't kill heph they will kill hat. And then who does heph kill? He hs no idea. Then the next night, who do we doctor? Heph? The mafia will just kill another one of us. 

By trying to turn Heph now, we basically lose a doctor, and hatmoza.

You're not understanding!

When hatmoza cures him he becomes part of the town. 

He wins if the town wins. If he kills us, then he loses. 

We won't lose anything. What we do is gain an extra player who can kill bad guys! Of course it'll be hard to narrow them down, but extra guns for the town is beneficial. I don't understand how you can look at this differently. 

We're not gonna lose a doctor, unless they target the doctor himself. I don't see how Heph has anything to do with the doctor dying. 

Also, hatmoza isn't much of a target besides tonight, because if he cures the serial killer then he becomes a regular vanilla townie without any powers. 

I would just ignore you, but I need your help because we definitely do need to kill him.

I've written exactly why it is a problem to turn him. re-read it.

Tonight: Hat turns Heph, heph asks doctor to protect heph. Mafia kill hat. 
Next night, mafia randomly kill one of us because doctor will be protecting heph since "all us town guys need a vigilante SO BAD" and we will continue to lose people everyday until the doctor dies. Then heph dies.

It doesn't matter if they don't kill hat, they can kill any one of us. Even worse if they don't kill hat, don't you see? They have even more chance to kill the doctor or someone important.

You're making my point!


or just turn me and don't have the doctor cure me (or will he? can the mafia take the chance of targeting a known power townie with the sister of fate arround?) worst case scenario, I die tonight instead of an other townie at te hans of the mafia, best case, they fail their kill, get smacked by fate and I get to play vigilante for a bit.)... I hardly see the problem here.

Also as much as you want to argue, Hat only has one night action and there is no reason for him to wait... so either your argumentation is to lynch me which doesn't make sense anymore, or you're confused on something...



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theprof00 on 20 August 2010
c03n3nj0 said:
theprof00 said:
c03n3nj0 said:

theprof00 said:

I didn't mean that he IS a vigilante, but that he wants to kill as if he were a vigilante. Why else would he explain his killing of patapon. He didn't mean to. He is in control of his killing and could kill for us regardless of whether he is cured. 

And he will do this for us simply because HE CANNOT WIN at this point. He is doomed. Even if he joins us, we will lose because we will be focusing on protecting a killing role rather than ourselves. Having a killing role does not help us unless we know who mafia are.

He will kill for us for a spiritual victory. There is no other option.

LOOK if they don't kill heph they will kill hat. And then who does heph kill? He hs no idea. Then the next night, who do we doctor? Heph? The mafia will just kill another one of us. 

By trying to turn Heph now, we basically lose a doctor, and hatmoza.

You're not understanding!

When hatmoza cures him he becomes part of the town. 

He wins if the town wins. If he kills us, then he loses. 

We won't lose anything. What we do is gain an extra player who can kill bad guys! Of course it'll be hard to narrow them down, but extra guns for the town is beneficial. I don't understand how you can look at this differently. 

We're not gonna lose a doctor, unless they target the doctor himself. I don't see how Heph has anything to do with the doctor dying. 

Also, hatmoza isn't much of a target besides tonight, because if he cures the serial killer then he becomes a regular vanilla townie without any powers. 

I would just ignore you, but I need your help because we definitely do need to kill him.

I've written exactly why it is a problem to turn him. re-read it.

Tonight: Hat turns Heph, heph asks doctor to protect heph. Mafia kill hat. 
Next night, mafia randomly kill one of us because doctor will be protecting heph since "all us town guys need a vigilante SO BAD" and we will continue to lose people everyday until the doctor dies. Then heph dies.

It doesn't matter if they don't kill hat, they can kill any one of us. Even worse if they don't kill hat, don't you see? They have even more chance to kill the doctor or someone important.

You're making my point!

I see your point more clearly now. 

But listen to this: 

The mafia kill townies every day. Having the doctor protect Heph won't magically make them kill more. Also, we don't necessarily need the doctor to protect Heph every night, just this night.

In every game the mafia have been trying to kill someone important. And most of the time they do, but as long as the town kill the mafia before the mafia kills them the town wins. 

In the end, killing Heph is useless and will ultimately hurt the town, because doing that would be killing a townie. That's helping the mafia kill important people, actually. 

but we also run the risk of him being recruited by the mafia, if it's possible.

You're right, the better option is to not kill him and just let him be, but I'm trying to send a subtle message that, if you're not part of the equation of, will not understand.



Hephaestos on 20 August 2010
noname2200 said:
Hephaestos said:

Hat you disapoint me... I even went as far as looking for Akuma related hints (messatsu is the name in front of most his attacks), I made a long post day one filled with ryu quotes and this.... you should have read my posts closer if i was amongst the 3... I mean heck I was the only one asking the questions the SK would... is it really safe to do this, will it fail, what if they control....

Not comming forward directly  is solely because of the risk of a mafia with a control role... i metioned it and it's a possibility.. but now that i'm out, being SK or vigilante is the same thing to that regards.

I wanted you to tell the names cause if I was not in them i'd have tried to have you restart your search somehow... and avoid getting the others lynched. I'm in there so it's useless to suspect the others, I just wish I could have posted this sooner.

I'm happy to hear that my suspicions about hatmoza were wrong.  I have a few questions.  Let's start with the obvious: why are you only now stepping forward?


1) confirmed possibility of a "controler" type of character, making a known killer or vigilante just a mafia tool.

2)day 1 I was only 50% sure of Hat not being mafia or just luring the SK out cleaverly, I still made a post with hints cause my mafia history is strangely linked to him :p

3) back to 1, If my name was not on hat's list I was more inclined of helping him find me than saying it out loud.

hope this makes sense. In any case, I would not have revealed myself day one... no proof that it wasn't just a clever trap after all.

(and those comparing to the SF game... ryu had to choose day one between being SK or town protector on his role PM... FF only provided a salvation as a vanila townie, so I kept him as an escape route if discovered, sadly he died fast).



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c03n3nj0 on 20 August 2010

theprof00 said:

but we also run the risk of him being recruited by the mafia, if it's possible.

You're right, the better option is to not kill him and just let him be, but I'm trying to send a subtle message that, if you're not part of the equation of, will not understand.

Well, the risk is still there. But we don't have anything right now to prove it. 

Anyways, at least we came to an understanding. Honestly I was getting tired of the entire conversation. :/ 



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Hephaestos on 20 August 2010
theprof00 said:
c03n3nj0 said:
theprof00 said:
c03n3nj0 said:

theprof00 said:

I didn't mean that he IS a vigilante, but that he wants to kill as if he were a vigilante. Why else would he explain his killing of patapon. He didn't mean to. He is in control of his killing and could kill for us regardless of whether he is cured. 

And he will do this for us simply because HE CANNOT WIN at this point. He is doomed. Even if he joins us, we will lose because we will be focusing on protecting a killing role rather than ourselves. Having a killing role does not help us unless we know who mafia are.

He will kill for us for a spiritual victory. There is no other option.

LOOK if they don't kill heph they will kill hat. And then who does heph kill? He hs no idea. Then the next night, who do we doctor? Heph? The mafia will just kill another one of us. 

By trying to turn Heph now, we basically lose a doctor, and hatmoza.

You're not understanding!

When hatmoza cures him he becomes part of the town. 

He wins if the town wins. If he kills us, then he loses. 

We won't lose anything. What we do is gain an extra player who can kill bad guys! Of course it'll be hard to narrow them down, but extra guns for the town is beneficial. I don't understand how you can look at this differently. 

We're not gonna lose a doctor, unless they target the doctor himself. I don't see how Heph has anything to do with the doctor dying. 

Also, hatmoza isn't much of a target besides tonight, because if he cures the serial killer then he becomes a regular vanilla townie without any powers. 

I would just ignore you, but I need your help because we definitely do need to kill him.

I've written exactly why it is a problem to turn him. re-read it.

Tonight: Hat turns Heph, heph asks doctor to protect heph. Mafia kill hat. 
Next night, mafia randomly kill one of us because doctor will be protecting heph since "all us town guys need a vigilante SO BAD" and we will continue to lose people everyday until the doctor dies. Then heph dies.

It doesn't matter if they don't kill hat, they can kill any one of us. Even worse if they don't kill hat, don't you see? They have even more chance to kill the doctor or someone important.

You're making my point!

I see your point more clearly now. 

But listen to this: 

The mafia kill townies every day. Having the doctor protect Heph won't magically make them kill more. Also, we don't necessarily need the doctor to protect Heph every night, just this night.

In every game the mafia have been trying to kill someone important. And most of the time they do, but as long as the town kill the mafia before the mafia kills them the town wins. 

In the end, killing Heph is useless and will ultimately hurt the town, because doing that would be killing a townie. That's helping the mafia kill important people, actually. 

but we also run the risk of him being recruited by the mafia, if it's possible.

You're right, the better option is to not kill him and just let him be, but I'm trying to send a subtle message that, if you're not part of the equation of, will not understand.

wow you really continuously send the wrong messages.... I don't even get how i don't have a bad vibe on you though. (well a little still that is why I put you in the sunlight... you're welcome by the way :p)



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noname2200 on 20 August 2010
Hephaestos said:


1) confirmed possibility of a "controler" type of character, making a known killer or vigilante just a mafia tool.

2)day 1 I was only 50% sure of Hat not being mafia or just luring the SK out cleaverly, I still made a post with hints cause my mafia history is strangely linked to him :p

3) back to 1, If my name was not on hat's list I was more inclined of helping him find me than saying it out loud.

hope this makes sense. In any case, I would not have revealed myself day one... no proof that it wasn't just a clever trap after all.

(and those comparing to the SF game... ryu had to choose day one between being SK or town protector on his role PM... FF only provided a salvation as a vanila townie, so I kept him as an escape route if discovered, sadly he died fast).

And what makes you now believe that this isn't a trap, or that there isn't a mafia-like recruiter out there?



theprof00 on 20 August 2010
Hephaestos said:
theprof00 said:
c03n3nj0 said:

theprof00 said:

I didn't mean that he IS a vigilante, but that he wants to kill as if he were a vigilante. Why else would he explain his killing of patapon. He didn't mean to. He is in control of his killing and could kill for us regardless of whether he is cured. 

And he will do this for us simply because HE CANNOT WIN at this point. He is doomed. Even if he joins us, we will lose because we will be focusing on protecting a killing role rather than ourselves. Having a killing role does not help us unless we know who mafia are.

He will kill for us for a spiritual victory. There is no other option.

LOOK if they don't kill heph they will kill hat. And then who does heph kill? He hs no idea. Then the next night, who do we doctor? Heph? The mafia will just kill another one of us. 

By trying to turn Heph now, we basically lose a doctor, and hatmoza.

You're not understanding!

When hatmoza cures him he becomes part of the town. 

He wins if the town wins. If he kills us, then he loses. 

We won't lose anything. What we do is gain an extra player who can kill bad guys! Of course it'll be hard to narrow them down, but extra guns for the town is beneficial. I don't understand how you can look at this differently. 

We're not gonna lose a doctor, unless they target the doctor himself. I don't see how Heph has anything to do with the doctor dying. 

Also, hatmoza isn't much of a target besides tonight, because if he cures the serial killer then he becomes a regular vanilla townie without any powers. 

I would just ignore you, but I need your help because we definitely do need to kill him.

I've written exactly why it is a problem to turn him. re-read it.

Tonight: Hat turns Heph, heph asks doctor to protect heph. Mafia kill hat. 
Next night, mafia randomly kill one of us because doctor will be protecting heph since "all us town guys need a vigilante SO BAD" and we will continue to lose people everyday until the doctor dies. Then heph dies.

It doesn't matter if they don't kill hat, they can kill any one of us. Even worse if they don't kill hat, don't you see? They have even more chance to kill the doctor or someone important.

You're making my point!


or just turn me and don't have the doctor cure me (or will he? can the mafia take the chance of targeting a known power townie with the sister of fate arround?) worst case scenario, I die tonight instead of an other townie at te hans of the mafia, best case, they fail their kill, get smacked by fate and I get to play vigilante for a bit.)... I hardly see the problem here.

Also as much as you want to argue, Hat only has one night action and there is no reason for him to wait... so either your argumentation is to lynch me which doesn't make sense anymore, or you're confused on something...

I'm all for you just being a vigilante. The arguments I've provided are less for you, and more for the doctor and hat. 

I've made my points so I don't need a platform for which to send messages anymore. I'm glad enough people came out to argue the details, but the people involved need to figure out what is the best option BASED on what I've said. 

Use the yomi explanations I've provided, and make the best possible choice you can make based on what you think they will do.



noname2200 on 20 August 2010

For that matter, why would you rather join the town than the mafia?



c03n3nj0 on 20 August 2010

I WANT TO ASK EVERYONE WHAT THEIR TOP SUSPECTS ARE. 
 

I guess this is a lazy way to get everyone into a discussion again. I feel that since hatmoza's plan ended, and that was most of the discussion that has happened day 2, the thread could die down a bit.

Now, the day will end in around 24 hours I think, so it's best to at least try too grab someone everybody agrees is suspicious then having the day end with a no lynch. 

Nikells got the closest to being lynched, he prepared to roleclaim, but since there's no pressure on him anymore I don't think he'll actually do it. 

I FoS'd dtewi because most of his votes have been semi-bandwagon-y. He has stayed on the topic that was being discussed at the moment, and he really fits a mafia trying to look like he's discussing to me. 

ScifiBoy I'm not as suspicious as I was before, one reason was the he generally agreed with other people in his votes, but he started discussing again shortly after. 

I'm convince prof is pro-town, now, despite me FoSing him earlier. 



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