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Its a matter of what matches what. When it comes to a large amount of genres, a controller works best, for some genres its mouse and keyboard or a fighting stick. Kinect isn't ideal for anything and is very limited with the genres it can work with effectively. And to turn your argument against you, playing NG with kinect would be like playing guitar hero with a standard controller. You can do it, but its impractical.



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Icyedge said:
nobodyspecial said:
Icyedge said:
nobodyspecial said:
Icyedge said:
leatherhat said:
nobodyspecial said:

You find moving your feet to move complex? You find looking around or moving your hand to move a camera complex? You find pointing to aim and moving your fingers/thumb/hand in someway to shoot complex? How do you function in life and how the hell did you work out how to use a keyboard? Lol! And of course the Kinect is capable of all that and I wouldn't be surprised if some if not all of those things are featured in launch games. (One of the sports games has paintball which could use controls like that.)


Do you really think that its a practical replacement for a controller? If so more power to you, you're gonna need it when you dance all over your living room playing some basic shooter

Leatherhat is right, it makes absolutely no sense to use that method over a controller. Unless you want to loose weight that is.

Sorry to disappoint you but I seriously doubt you'd lose (not loose) much if any weight using my control method. You wouldn't be "dancing all over your living room" you'd be moving slightly more than playing a lightgun game like a Virtua Cop or House Of The Dead game. Or do you think that they play better using a joypad too? (That's a criticism I have of the Xbox360 actually, where the hell are the lightgun games and guns??!)

The Kinect isn't supposed to replace the joypad, at least not yet as it's just the first version of its type of controller. (3D body motion capture. I didn't say "full body" this time in case somebody nitpicks that it most likely can't track individual fingers.) It's an alternative controller that Microsoft is obviously using first to get into the casual motion control market but then (hopefully and sooner rather than later) to make games and gaming experiences that will only be possible with the type of controller that the Kinect is. In fact even the simple Ricochet game is only possible with Kinect because you're not just touching points on the screen in 2D space to hit the balls, the 3D motion capture allows you to actually hit/kick/head in 3D space and at different velocities so you can control the angle and speed/power at which the balls are hit. Now you'll probably say that can be done with the Wii but it can't because the Wii just has 1 thing to hit with whereas with Kinect you can use your whole body so therefore can hit more than 1 ball at once and use any parts of your body to hit them with.

I'm amazed that some of you have managed to go beyond playing Space Invaders if you're unable to grasp the concept and understand the potential of Kinect.


I dont really understand how your post reply to mine. Sure its only possible to do Ricochet on Kinect, I totally agree. There other games only possible with Kinect also. What I was saying is that its less efficient to control a type of game like FPS with Kinect instead of a controller. Adventure, RPG, FPS, TPS, Strategy, team sports (hockey, basket...), battle game (mortal combat, blazblue...) ect they would all be possible with Kinect, but the controller is simply more efficient.


FPS games are trying to emulate being inside the player. If the controller is the player themselves rather than a joypad being controlled by the player in a not very realistic way then how can the controller be more efficient? So do you think that a controller is a more efficient way to play lightgun games than a lightgun itself? If you mean efficient as in using less energy by moving less then using a joypad is more efficient than using a steering wheel and pedals but many people prefer to play driving games using a steering wheel and pedals because it's more realistic and more fun to them. And I've never played Guitar Hero or Rock Band but I'm guessing that it would be more "efficient" to play them with a joypad rather than the intrument controllers?

Im sorry but your comparison doesnt have anything to do with the control of a FPS. In a FPS, you need to control the camera and make your character run, until we have screen all around us and a sliding circular mat on which you can run in all direction get back to me.

See, you don't understand what Kinect does, do you? How do you control the camera in FPS games? With an analogue stick, right? Analogue sticks don't move much, just about a centimetre in each direction. Now think about your head, you can move it more than a centimetre in any direction without losing sight of the screen and you can use it like an analogue stick but since it's your own head with eyes it's more realistic as you're actually looking around to some extent. Or take your hand/arm, you can move that around more, just like you're moving a big analogue stick instead pf moving a regular one with your thumb. In fact that's how Half Life 2 was being controlled in the leaked Kinect test, he was using 1 hand to look around and actually the other hand to move and interact with objects, I'm not sure how he shot as that wasn't in the footage. (I guess it could actually be using head tracking to aim and maybe making a fist with one of his hands to shoot or something.) You don't need a sliding circular mat that you can run in all directions on because you just have to take 1 step with 1 foot towards whichever direction you want or slide your foot (as in push your foot about a foot as in 12 inches) in that direction. DDR is a basic version of what I'm talking about because the mat acts as a d-pad and you step on whichever of the 8 directions you want. But you don't need a mat for my control method because Kinect is tracking you in 3D space and since it's tracking you in 3D space your movements on the "invisible mat" on the floor are like an analogue pad not a d-pad.

OK, I just looked up the paintball game (it's part of Deca Sports Freedom) and found a preview that gives you an example of controlling a FPS with Kinect. In it he moves his body and feet to move the character around and he uses his hand/arm to aim and makes a (in his words) "pew pew motion" to shoot. He says he got used to the control method in seconds and that it has sold him on Kinect. Admittedly the friend he was playing with posts in the comments that he had more trouble moving but maybe that's just an excuse since his friend beat him, lol! Also remember this is just part of a casual launch game made in 1 year so there's plenty of potential for a fully developed Kinect FPS to be at least as great as a traditionally controlled one. Here's the preview: http://gamerlimit.com/2010/06/e310-paintball-sold-me-on-kinect/



leatherhat said:

Its a matter of what matches what. When it comes to a large amount of genres, a controller works best, for some genres its mouse and keyboard or a fighting stick. Kinect isn't ideal for anything and is very limited with the genres it can work with effectively. And to turn your argument against you, playing NG with kinect would be like playing guitar hero with a standard controller. You can do it, but its impractical.


How do you know if a Kinect version of Ninja Gaiden would be impractical or not since not only has one not been made or even announced but you don't even seem to understand Kinect anyway? You could be right of course but so what? Ninja Gaiden is great but if there isn't a Ninja Gaiden game made for Kinect that doesn't mean that Kinect is the worse thing ever, lol! The point of Kinect isn't that it might not be suitable for some current games, the point is that it at least has the potential to be used in revolutionary new ones. Think of adventure games where you can just reach out and grab objects and use them more realistically. Imagine Shenmue 3 using Kinect?! Also you can combine Kinect with using a joypad too so if you don't believe that (non-QTE) fighting in a Shenmue game would be practical with Kinect then you could play all the other parts of the game with Kinect (the QTEs could be really cool with Kinect) then just use the joypad for the non-QTE fighting.



nobodyspecial said:
Icyedge said:
 

Im sorry but your comparison doesnt have anything to do with the control of a FPS. In a FPS, you need to control the camera and make your character run, until we have screen all around us and a sliding circular mat on which you can run in all direction get back to me.

See, you don't understand what Kinect does, do you? How do you control the camera in FPS games? With an analogue stick, right? Analogue sticks don't move much, just about a centimetre in each direction.

Thats actually the point here, its faster to control on a smaller scale.

Now think about your head, you can move it more than a centimetre in any direction without losing sight of the screen and you can use it like an analogue stick but since it's your own head with eyes it's more realistic as you're actually looking around to some extent.

What do you think I was talking about when I said "having screens all around us". Or a HMD (head mounted display) would do the trick too. But with a screen in front you, thats not confortable. Try to move your head but keep fixing the same spot with your eyes...

Or take your hand/arm, you can move that around more, just like you're moving a big analogue stick instead pf moving a regular one with your thumb. In fact that's how Half Life 2 was being controlled in the leaked Kinect test, he was using 1 hand to look around and actually the other hand to move and interact with objects, I'm not sure how he shot as that wasn't in the footage. (I guess it could actually be using head tracking to aim and maybe making a fist with one of his hands to shoot or something.) You don't need a sliding circular mat that you can run in all directions on because you just have to take 1 step with 1 foot towards whichever direction you want or slide your foot (as in push your foot about a foot as in 12 inches) in that direction. DDR is a basic version of what I'm talking about because the mat acts as a d-pad and you step on whichever of the 8 directions you want. But you don't need a mat for my control method because Kinect is tracking you in 3D space and since it's tracking you in 3D space your movements on the "invisible mat" on the floor are like an analogue pad not a d-pad.

Everything in this paragraph is possible, im not arguing this. The thing is, why the hell someone would use this control over the controller, if it isnt to loose weight or out of curiosity that is. A player with a controller would kill your ass in no time.

OK, I just looked up the paintball game (it's part of Deca Sports Freedom) and found a preview that gives you an example of controlling a FPS with Kinect.

Your completely missing the point, I can easily imagine many different controls method for FPS with Kinect. Since the start im not saying its not possible. Im saying a controller is more efficient.





Icyedge said:
nobodyspecial said:
Icyedge said:
 

Im sorry but your comparison doesnt have anything to do with the control of a FPS. In a FPS, you need to control the camera and make your character run, until we have screen all around us and a sliding circular mat on which you can run in all direction get back to me.

See, you don't understand what Kinect does, do you? How do you control the camera in FPS games? With an analogue stick, right? Analogue sticks don't move much, just about a centimetre in each direction.

Thats actually the point here, its faster to control on a smaller scale.

Now think about your head, you can move it more than a centimetre in any direction without losing sight of the screen and you can use it like an analogue stick but since it's your own head with eyes it's more realistic as you're actually looking around to some extent.

What do you think I was talking about when I said "having screens all around us". Or a HMD (head mounted display) would do the trick too. But with a screen in front you, thats not confortable. Try to move your head but keep fixing the same spot with your eyes...

Or take your hand/arm, you can move that around more, just like you're moving a big analogue stick instead pf moving a regular one with your thumb. In fact that's how Half Life 2 was being controlled in the leaked Kinect test, he was using 1 hand to look around and actually the other hand to move and interact with objects, I'm not sure how he shot as that wasn't in the footage. (I guess it could actually be using head tracking to aim and maybe making a fist with one of his hands to shoot or something.) You don't need a sliding circular mat that you can run in all directions on because you just have to take 1 step with 1 foot towards whichever direction you want or slide your foot (as in push your foot about a foot as in 12 inches) in that direction. DDR is a basic version of what I'm talking about because the mat acts as a d-pad and you step on whichever of the 8 directions you want. But you don't need a mat for my control method because Kinect is tracking you in 3D space and since it's tracking you in 3D space your movements on the "invisible mat" on the floor are like an analogue pad not a d-pad.

Everything in this paragraph is possible, im not arguing this. The thing is, why the hell someone would use this control over the controller, if it isnt to loose weight or out of curiosity that is. A player with a controller would kill your ass in no time.

OK, I just looked up the paintball game (it's part of Deca Sports Freedom) and found a preview that gives you an example of controlling a FPS with Kinect.

Your completely missing the point, I can easily imagine many different controls method for FPS with Kinect. Since the start im not saying its not possible. Im saying a controller is more efficient.



Would you agree then that a steering wheel and pedals are less efficient than a joypad for a driving game and a lightgun is less efficient than a joypad for a shooting game? If you agree (which you should since it's a fact if you're talking about efficiency as in moving less and using less energy) then tell me whether you have ever played games using steering wheels and lightguns and if you enjoyed playing them?

As for moving your head, I think you'll find that it's very easy and comfortable to move your head while keeping your eyes fixed on one spot. I'm talking about just moving your head a few centimetres, maybe an inch or 2, since that's all that's needed. Try it yourself. (In fact you probably move your head instinctively at times when playing regular joypad controlled games anyway.) And if you haven't quite understood and are about to reply "Well you need to move a lot to make the camera look around." then remember the analogue stick, you just keep it held in the direction you want to look and it's the same as your head, you simply centre your head when you want to stop or move it in another direction when you want to look in another direction. That's if you even have to use head tracking in a game, I just gave head tracking as an example, I'm not saying all Kinect games will use it as obviously not all will. In fact I don't know if any launch games use it apart from possibly the dancing games (and that's not for looking around) and the only game announced for Kinect that definitely uses it that I can think of is Forza Kinect.



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nobodyspecial said:
Icyedge said:
nobodyspecial said:
Icyedge said:
 

Im sorry but your comparison doesnt have anything to do with the control of a FPS. In a FPS, you need to control the camera and make your character run, until we have screen all around us and a sliding circular mat on which you can run in all direction get back to me.

See, you don't understand what Kinect does, do you? How do you control the camera in FPS games? With an analogue stick, right? Analogue sticks don't move much, just about a centimetre in each direction.

Thats actually the point here, its faster to control on a smaller scale.

Now think about your head, you can move it more than a centimetre in any direction without losing sight of the screen and you can use it like an analogue stick but since it's your own head with eyes it's more realistic as you're actually looking around to some extent.

What do you think I was talking about when I said "having screens all around us". Or a HMD (head mounted display) would do the trick too. But with a screen in front you, thats not confortable. Try to move your head but keep fixing the same spot with your eyes...

Or take your hand/arm, you can move that around more, just like you're moving a big analogue stick instead pf moving a regular one with your thumb. In fact that's how Half Life 2 was being controlled in the leaked Kinect test, he was using 1 hand to look around and actually the other hand to move and interact with objects, I'm not sure how he shot as that wasn't in the footage. (I guess it could actually be using head tracking to aim and maybe making a fist with one of his hands to shoot or something.) You don't need a sliding circular mat that you can run in all directions on because you just have to take 1 step with 1 foot towards whichever direction you want or slide your foot (as in push your foot about a foot as in 12 inches) in that direction. DDR is a basic version of what I'm talking about because the mat acts as a d-pad and you step on whichever of the 8 directions you want. But you don't need a mat for my control method because Kinect is tracking you in 3D space and since it's tracking you in 3D space your movements on the "invisible mat" on the floor are like an analogue pad not a d-pad.

Everything in this paragraph is possible, im not arguing this. The thing is, why the hell someone would use this control over the controller, if it isnt to loose weight or out of curiosity that is. A player with a controller would kill your ass in no time.

OK, I just looked up the paintball game (it's part of Deca Sports Freedom) and found a preview that gives you an example of controlling a FPS with Kinect.

Your completely missing the point, I can easily imagine many different controls method for FPS with Kinect. Since the start im not saying its not possible. Im saying a controller is more efficient.



Would you agree then that a steering wheel and pedals are less efficient than a joypad for a driving game and a lightgun is less efficient than a joypad for a shooting game? If you agree (which you should since it's a fact if you're talking about efficiency as in moving less and using less energy) then tell me whether you have ever played games using steering wheels and lightguns and if you enjoyed playing them?

As for moving your head, I think you'll find that it's very easy and comfortable to move your head while keeping your eyes fixed on one spot. I'm talking about just moving your head a few centimetres, maybe an inch or 2, since that's all that's needed. Try it yourself. (In fact you probably move your head instinctively at times when playing regular joypad controlled games anyway.) And if you haven't quite understood and are about to reply "Well you need to move a lot to make the camera look around." then remember the analogue stick, you just keep it held in the direction you want to look and it's the same as your head, you simply centre your head when you want to stop or move it in another direction when you want to look in another direction. That's if you even have to use head tracking in a game, I just gave head tracking as an example, I'm not saying all Kinect games will use it as obviously not all will. In fact I don't know if any launch games use it apart from possibly the dancing games (and that's not for looking around) and the only game announced for Kinect that definitely uses it that I can think of is Forza Kinect.

Your completely out of track. Like said many times already, it depends of what your playing. Driving a car doesnt require you to do a 360 degree turn in 1 second like a FPS. How could a controller be faster or more efficient than a lightgun for a on-rail gun game?!? Wow, what are you thinking? FPS and on-rail lightgun games does not require the same types of control at all. Im not even loosing a second reading your other paragraph, talking with you, or should  I say talking alone, is completely useless...



Icyedge said:
nobodyspecial said:
Icyedge said:
nobodyspecial said:
Icyedge said:
 

Im sorry but your comparison doesnt have anything to do with the control of a FPS. In a FPS, you need to control the camera and make your character run, until we have screen all around us and a sliding circular mat on which you can run in all direction get back to me.

See, you don't understand what Kinect does, do you? How do you control the camera in FPS games? With an analogue stick, right? Analogue sticks don't move much, just about a centimetre in each direction.

Thats actually the point here, its faster to control on a smaller scale.

Now think about your head, you can move it more than a centimetre in any direction without losing sight of the screen and you can use it like an analogue stick but since it's your own head with eyes it's more realistic as you're actually looking around to some extent.

What do you think I was talking about when I said "having screens all around us". Or a HMD (head mounted display) would do the trick too. But with a screen in front you, thats not confortable. Try to move your head but keep fixing the same spot with your eyes...

Or take your hand/arm, you can move that around more, just like you're moving a big analogue stick instead pf moving a regular one with your thumb. In fact that's how Half Life 2 was being controlled in the leaked Kinect test, he was using 1 hand to look around and actually the other hand to move and interact with objects, I'm not sure how he shot as that wasn't in the footage. (I guess it could actually be using head tracking to aim and maybe making a fist with one of his hands to shoot or something.) You don't need a sliding circular mat that you can run in all directions on because you just have to take 1 step with 1 foot towards whichever direction you want or slide your foot (as in push your foot about a foot as in 12 inches) in that direction. DDR is a basic version of what I'm talking about because the mat acts as a d-pad and you step on whichever of the 8 directions you want. But you don't need a mat for my control method because Kinect is tracking you in 3D space and since it's tracking you in 3D space your movements on the "invisible mat" on the floor are like an analogue pad not a d-pad.

Everything in this paragraph is possible, im not arguing this. The thing is, why the hell someone would use this control over the controller, if it isnt to loose weight or out of curiosity that is. A player with a controller would kill your ass in no time.

OK, I just looked up the paintball game (it's part of Deca Sports Freedom) and found a preview that gives you an example of controlling a FPS with Kinect.

Your completely missing the point, I can easily imagine many different controls method for FPS with Kinect. Since the start im not saying its not possible. Im saying a controller is more efficient.



Would you agree then that a steering wheel and pedals are less efficient than a joypad for a driving game and a lightgun is less efficient than a joypad for a shooting game? If you agree (which you should since it's a fact if you're talking about efficiency as in moving less and using less energy) then tell me whether you have ever played games using steering wheels and lightguns and if you enjoyed playing them?

As for moving your head, I think you'll find that it's very easy and comfortable to move your head while keeping your eyes fixed on one spot. I'm talking about just moving your head a few centimetres, maybe an inch or 2, since that's all that's needed. Try it yourself. (In fact you probably move your head instinctively at times when playing regular joypad controlled games anyway.) And if you haven't quite understood and are about to reply "Well you need to move a lot to make the camera look around." then remember the analogue stick, you just keep it held in the direction you want to look and it's the same as your head, you simply centre your head when you want to stop or move it in another direction when you want to look in another direction. That's if you even have to use head tracking in a game, I just gave head tracking as an example, I'm not saying all Kinect games will use it as obviously not all will. In fact I don't know if any launch games use it apart from possibly the dancing games (and that's not for looking around) and the only game announced for Kinect that definitely uses it that I can think of is Forza Kinect.

Your completely out of track. Like said many times already, it depends of what your playing. Driving a car doesnt require you to do a 360 degree turn in 1 second like a FPS. How could a controller be faster or more efficient than a lightgun for a on-rail gun game?!? Wow, what are you thinking? FPS and on-rail lightgun games does not require the same types of control at all. Im not even loosing a second reading your other paragraph, talking with you, or should  I say talking alone, is completely useless...

You won't reply to my second paragraph because you've run out of arguments. You won't admit to the FACT that using a steering wheel and pedals is less efficient than a joypad because if you did you know you'd have to admit that you've lost the debate. And take for example Crazy Tazi or other free-roaming driving games, you often have to do 360 degree turns in 1 second in those don't you? Oops, forgot about that didn't you? (In fact most if not all racing games have tracks with tight hairpins which require you to do if not 360 degree turns in 1 second then close to 360 degrees.) Did I say joypads were faster than lightguns in shooting games? (Although technically they can be if the game allows you to make the aiming speed high enough but that would make the game much harder and probably only people with amazing joypad skills could play it like that.) I said a joypad is more efficient than a lightgun for shooting games, which it is since you have to move less and use less energy using a joypad as you only have to move a thumb and finger (or fingers if the game has grenades and/or the ability to switch weapons manually) wheareas you have to move your arm, including your hand, and finger/s with a lightgun. In fact you'd have to move your other arm too if the game had grenades and/or manual weapon changing and the button/s for them were out of reach of your fingers of the hand holding the lightgun. You're the one it seems useless to talk to as you won't accept the facts.



ramses01 said:

Just because you are creatively limited doesn't mean the rest of the world is. 

Very, very few developers are creative.  Most just slap a new coat of paint on old ideas.



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nobodyspecial said:
 

You won't reply to my second paragraph because you've run out of arguments. You won't admit to the FACT that using a steering wheel and pedals is less efficient than a joypad because if you did you know you'd have to admit that you've lost the debate. And take for example Crazy Tazi or other free-roaming driving games, you often have to do 360 degree turns in 1 second in those don't you? Oops, forgot about that didn't you? (In fact most if not all racing games have tracks with tight hairpins which require you to do if not 360 degree turns in 1 second then close to 360 degrees.) Did I say joypads were faster than lightguns in shooting games? (Although technically they can be if the game allows you to make the aiming speed high enough but that would make the game much harder and probably only people with amazing joypad skills could play it like that.) I said a joypad is more efficient than a lightgun for shooting games, which it is since you have to move less and use less energy using a joypad as you only have to move a thumb and finger (or fingers if the game has grenades and/or the ability to switch weapons manually) wheareas you have to move your arm, including your hand, and finger/s with a lightgun. In fact you'd have to move your other arm too if the game had grenades and/or manual weapon changing and the button/s for them were out of reach of your fingers of the hand holding the lightgun. You're the one it seems useless to talk to as you won't accept the facts.

Like I said, I didnt read it, why would I lie? Im not reading the rest of your wall of text either. Too bad I didnt remember that discussion was in this thread lol.