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Forums - General Discussion - Do you honestly believe Obama has a chance in 2012?

thranx said:
damndl0ser said:
thranx said:
damndl0ser said:
thranx said:
damndl0ser said:
TheRealMafoo said:
damndl0ser said:

 




Yes, I know they already do have a program for those in the Military.  However joining the army scares the shit out of a lot of people.  And simply put, some people have no chance at making it in the military.  Thats why they should have something other than just the Military.  It wouldn't take very long for a program like this to become a success.  There is so much money being spent on infrastructure its silly.  Just recently there was a 8 mile stretch of road built near my home and it cost something like 100 million dollars.  That price is insane, because the road was built through farmland and had only 2 small bridges.    A program like this could cut the costs in half.   So we either get cheaper roads or more roads being built for the same price.

Not to mention everyone who does the program will be trained in some sort of skill set that would be useful in their lives even if the decided not to goto college.   It would also force places like McDonalds to increase their pay because these people would have the skill sets and wouldn't need to work flipping burgers.  All around it would do nothing but incourage people to do better with their life.


What about the current road workers put out of business? I know many 18 year olds who already go into construction, and most would rather not go to more school. They are happy doing what they like working with their hands. School is not for everyone, especially college. I myself am capable of going to college( I can pay my way as I go, and I am smart enough to pass) but for what I want to do in life it will not help me. I think we would be better off with a good college system, and a good trade school system. We are severly lacking in the latter. I know many people who could go to school for a shorter period of time and learn a specific skill set instead of the general education you get at college. Many feel that the extra classes are a waste and just want to learn what they need to to get a job they like.

If you don't goto college then maybe you get free health care for a few years or you get some other type of incentive like no tax until you reach a certain age or you make x amount of money.  There are tons of ways you could receive an incentive for your service to the government.

There would probably be some job losses at first, but then after a while things would level off and it would work much better than the current system.  Things are basically getting to expensive and something has to be done.  I mean jeez 100 million dollars for an 8 mile stretch of road?  Cut that in half and use those free workers to build low income homes with the money that is saved.

As you said some people don't want to goto college for whatever reason.  And you shouldn't be required to.  But for every one of you there are atleast one that can't goto school because its simply to expensive.  So something needs to be done and this idea would be a good way of changing things.

It will never happen because there would be to many people claiming it would be the first steps toward communism or something stupid like that.  I guess they could make the program not mandatory but I doubt you would get that many workers signing up for minimum wage work.  Even though in the long run it would drag them out of poverty.

And that is the real problem. There is no motivation anymore. I think the best way to motivate would be to encourage and enable home ownership. My parents never owned a home, and sadly they never will, but they did enable my brother to already buy a house, and the rest of us look like we will be able to some day also. I could see myself not doing as well in life if I did not think I would eventually own something, be it a business or a house.

The current financial mess we have now is a result of a housing bubble that was produced, at least in part, by the government pushing home ownership.  People need shelter, but owning a home is not essential.  I also  remember a study where the higher the home ownership rate in a country, the worse off they are financially.



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richardhutnik said:
thranx said:
damndl0ser said:
thranx said:
damndl0ser said:
thranx said:
damndl0ser said:
TheRealMafoo said:
damndl0ser said:

 




Yes, I know they already do have a program for those in the Military.  However joining the army scares the shit out of a lot of people.  And simply put, some people have no chance at making it in the military.  Thats why they should have something other than just the Military.  It wouldn't take very long for a program like this to become a success.  There is so much money being spent on infrastructure its silly.  Just recently there was a 8 mile stretch of road built near my home and it cost something like 100 million dollars.  That price is insane, because the road was built through farmland and had only 2 small bridges.    A program like this could cut the costs in half.   So we either get cheaper roads or more roads being built for the same price.

Not to mention everyone who does the program will be trained in some sort of skill set that would be useful in their lives even if the decided not to goto college.   It would also force places like McDonalds to increase their pay because these people would have the skill sets and wouldn't need to work flipping burgers.  All around it would do nothing but incourage people to do better with their life.


What about the current road workers put out of business? I know many 18 year olds who already go into construction, and most would rather not go to more school. They are happy doing what they like working with their hands. School is not for everyone, especially college. I myself am capable of going to college( I can pay my way as I go, and I am smart enough to pass) but for what I want to do in life it will not help me. I think we would be better off with a good college system, and a good trade school system. We are severly lacking in the latter. I know many people who could go to school for a shorter period of time and learn a specific skill set instead of the general education you get at college. Many feel that the extra classes are a waste and just want to learn what they need to to get a job they like.

If you don't goto college then maybe you get free health care for a few years or you get some other type of incentive like no tax until you reach a certain age or you make x amount of money.  There are tons of ways you could receive an incentive for your service to the government.

There would probably be some job losses at first, but then after a while things would level off and it would work much better than the current system.  Things are basically getting to expensive and something has to be done.  I mean jeez 100 million dollars for an 8 mile stretch of road?  Cut that in half and use those free workers to build low income homes with the money that is saved.

As you said some people don't want to goto college for whatever reason.  And you shouldn't be required to.  But for every one of you there are atleast one that can't goto school because its simply to expensive.  So something needs to be done and this idea would be a good way of changing things.

It will never happen because there would be to many people claiming it would be the first steps toward communism or something stupid like that.  I guess they could make the program not mandatory but I doubt you would get that many workers signing up for minimum wage work.  Even though in the long run it would drag them out of poverty.

And that is the real problem. There is no motivation anymore. I think the best way to motivate would be to encourage and enable home ownership. My parents never owned a home, and sadly they never will, but they did enable my brother to already buy a house, and the rest of us look like we will be able to some day also. I could see myself not doing as well in life if I did not think I would eventually own something, be it a business or a house.

The current financial mess we have now is a result of a housing bubble that was produced, at least in part, by the government pushing home ownership.  People need shelter, but owning a home is not essential.  I also  remember a study where the higher the home ownership rate in a country, the worse off they are financially.


This simply is not true.  The reason we have this housing bubble "bust" was because the banks were giving high risk loans to people that they knew couldn't pay back the loans.  Then they would sell these loans to a 3rd party in bundles as high risk.  And so the bank had nothing really to lose because they sold these loans already.  This encouraged the bank to take even more high risk loans because it was making the banks plenty of money.  So the cycle repeated until it finally burst.

Everyone should own a home.  That doesn't mean it should be a McMansion, or one thats out of your price range.  Simply put thats why these people lost everything.  They were living above their means by using credit cards to pay for everything.  Then after they had no more credit on their cards, the lost everything.



"If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow."

Quote by- The Imortal John Wayne, the original BADASS!

 

 

 

damndl0ser said:

This simply is not true.  The reason we have this housing bubble "bust" was because the banks were giving high risk loans to people that they knew couldn't pay back the loans.  Then they would sell these loans to a 3rd party in bundles as high risk.  And so the bank had nothing really to lose because they sold these loans already.  This encouraged the bank to take even more high risk loans because it was making the banks plenty of money.  So the cycle repeated until it finally burst.

Everyone should own a home.  That doesn't mean it should be a McMansion, or one thats out of your price range.  Simply put thats why these people lost everything.  They were living above their means by using credit cards to pay for everything.  Then after they had no more credit on their cards, the lost everything.


"There is very little doubt that the underlying cause of the current credit crisis was a housing bubble. But the collapse of the bubble would not have led to a worldwide recession and credit crisis if almost 40% of all U.S. mortgages--25 million loans--were not of the low quality known as subprime or Alt-A.

"..."

"The low interest rates of the early 2000s may explain the growth of the housing bubble, but they don't explain the poor quality of these mortgages. For that we have to look to the government's distortion of the mortgage finance system through the Community Reinvestment Act and the government-sponsored enterprises (GSEs) Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

"In a recent meeting with the Council on Foreign Relations, Barney Frank--the chair of the House Financial Services Committee and a longtime supporter of Fannie and Freddie--admitted that it had been a mistake to force homeownership on people who could not afford it. Renting, he said, would have been preferable. Now he tells us.

"Long-term pressure from Frank and his colleagues to expand home ownership connects government housing policies to both the housing bubble and the poor quality of the mortgages on which it is based. In 1992, Congress gave a new affordable housing "mission" to Fannie and Freddie, and authorized the Department of Housing and Urban Development to define its scope through regulations.

"Shortly thereafter, Fannie Mae, under Chairman Jim Johnson, made its first "trillion-dollar commitment" to increase financing for affordable housing. What this meant for the quality of the mortgages that Fannie--and later Freddie--would buy has not become clear until now.

"On a parallel track was the Community Reinvestment Act. New CRA regulations in 1995 required banks to demonstrate that they were making mortgage loans to underserved communities, which inevitably included borrowers whose credit standing did not qualify them for a conventional mortgage loan.

"To meet this new requirement, insured banks--like the GSEs--had to reduce the quality of the mortgages they would make or acquire. As the enforcers of CRA, the regulators themselves were co-opted into this process, approving lending practices that they would otherwise have scorned. The erosion of traditional mortgage standards had begun.

"Shortly after these new mandates went into effect, the nation's homeownership rate--which had remained at about 64% since 1982--began to rise, increasing 3.3% from 64.2% in 1994 to 67.5% in 2000 under President Clinton, and an additional 1.7% during the Bush administration, before declining in 2007 to 67.8%. There is no reasonable explanation for this sudden spurt, other than a major change in the standards for granting a mortgage or a large increase in the amount of low-cost funding available for mortgages. The data suggest that it was both.

"..."

"From 1994 to 2003, Fannie and Freddie's purchases of mortgages, as a percentage of all mortgage originations, increased from 37% to an all-time high of 57%, effectively cornering the conventional conforming market. With leverage ratios that averaged 75-to-1, and funds raised with implicit government backing, the GSEs were pouring money into the housing market. This in itself would have driven the housing bubble.

"But it also appears that, perhaps as early as 1993, Fannie Mae began to offer easy financing terms and lowered its loan standards in order to meet congressionally mandated affordable housing goals and fulfill the company's trillion-dollar commitment. For example, in each of the years 2000 and 2001, the first years for which data are available, 18% of Fannie's originations--totaling $157 billion--were loans with FICO scores of less than 660 (the federal regulators' cut-off point for defining subprime loans). There is no equivalent data available for Freddie, but it is likely that its purchases were proportionately the same, amounting to an estimated $120 billion.

"These sums would have swamped originations by the traditional subprime lenders, which probably totaled $119 billion in these two years. Data for Alt-A loans before 2005 are unavailable, but the fact that that Fannie and Freddie now hold 60% of all outstanding Alt-A loans provides a strong indication of the purchases they were making for many earlier years.

"...

"This set off a frenzy of subprime and Alt-A mortgage origination, in which--as incredible as it seems--Fannie and Freddie were competing  with Wall Street and one another for low-quality loans. Even when they were not the purchasers, the GSEs were Wall Street's biggest customers, often buying the AAA tranches of subprime and Alt-A pools that Wall Street put together. By 2007 they held $227 billion (one in six loans) in these nonprime pools, and approximately $1.6 trillion in low-quality loans altogether.

"From 2005 through 2007, the GSEs purchased over $1 trillion in subprime and Alt-A loans, driving up the housing bubble and driving down mortgage quality. During these years, HUD's regulations required that 55% of all GSE purchases be affordable, including 25% made to low- and very low-income borrowers. Housing bubbles are nothing new. We and other countries have had them before. The reason that the most recent bubble created a worldwide financial crisis is that it was inflated with low-quality loans required by government mandate. The fact that the same government must now come to the rescue is no reason for gratitude.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/13/housing-bubble-subprime-opinions-contributors_0216_peter_wallison_edward_pinto.html

 

The low quality loans that were issued were heavily driven by the government's desire to promote home ownership. If it wasn't for government intervention these loans would have NEVER been issued



The low quality loans that were issued were heavily driven by the government's desire to promote home ownership. If it wasn't for government intervention these loans would have NEVER been issued.

 

The Government never put a gun to my head and said take this mortgage once.  I took it knowing that I could afford it and that I hadn't went in over my head.  The only people that can be blamed for this problem is the bankers who in many cases turned their heads or over looked the ability of these people to pay of their mortgage because they knew it didn't matter.   And the individual who knew they couldn't afford their McMansion but went ahead and bought it anyway.

 

Thats why there are 3 empty houses on my block alone.  People were living above there means and to blame the government for trying to help people get a home is a bit retarded if you ask me.  Thats their jobs, to help the every day average joe.  If the bankers had been doing their part this mess would have never happend.  Simple as that.



"If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow."

Quote by- The Imortal John Wayne, the original BADASS!

 

 

 

damndl0ser said:

The low quality loans that were issued were heavily driven by the government's desire to promote home ownership. If it wasn't for government intervention these loans would have NEVER been issued.

 

The Government never put a gun to my head and said take this mortgage once.  I took it knowing that I could afford it and that I hadn't went in over my head.  The only people that can be blamed for this problem is the bankers who in many cases turned their heads or over looked the ability of these people to pay of their mortgage because they knew it didn't matter.   And the individual who knew they couldn't afford their McMansion but went ahead and bought it anyway.

 

Thats why there are 3 empty houses on my block alone.  People were living above there means and to blame the government for trying to help people get a home is a bit retarded if you ask me.  Thats their jobs, to help the every day average joe.  If the bankers had been doing their part this mess would have never happend.  Simple as that.

The government may not have forced you to take the mortgage, but the government was encouraging (forcing) banks to take on mortgages of individuals who couldn’t afford them. Without the government’s involvement those 3 houses wouldn’t have been sold because the banks wouldn’t have approved the mortgage without government involvement in the system.

Here is something you can research, regardless of whether we’re talking about Fannie Mae or Freddy Mac in the United States or the CMHC in Canada, when governments get involved in the housing market to promote home ownership it has only ever created unsustainable housing bubbles that has resulted in lower affordability.



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HappySqurriel said:
damndl0ser said:

The low quality loans that were issued were heavily driven by the government's desire to promote home ownership. If it wasn't for government intervention these loans would have NEVER been issued.

 

The Government never put a gun to my head and said take this mortgage once.  I took it knowing that I could afford it and that I hadn't went in over my head.  The only people that can be blamed for this problem is the bankers who in many cases turned their heads or over looked the ability of these people to pay of their mortgage because they knew it didn't matter.   And the individual who knew they couldn't afford their McMansion but went ahead and bought it anyway.

 

Thats why there are 3 empty houses on my block alone.  People were living above there means and to blame the government for trying to help people get a home is a bit retarded if you ask me.  Thats their jobs, to help the every day average joe.  If the bankers had been doing their part this mess would have never happend.  Simple as that.

The government may not have forced you to take the mortgage, but the government was encouraging (forcing) banks to take on mortgages of individuals who couldn’t afford them. Without the government’s involvement those 3 houses wouldn’t have been sold because the banks wouldn’t have approved the mortgage without government involvement in the system.

Here is something you can research, regardless of whether we’re talking about Fannie Mae or Freddy Mac in the United States or the CMHC in Canada, when governments get involved in the housing market to promote home ownership it has only ever created unsustainable housing bubbles that has resulted in lower affordability.


The goverment encouraged it, but the banks regulated it.  There was simply not enough safe guards put in to make sure the bankers were doing their job checking up on these people to make sure they even had a job.



"If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow."

Quote by- The Imortal John Wayne, the original BADASS!

 

 

 

damndl0ser said:
HappySqurriel said:
damndl0ser said:

The low quality loans that were issued were heavily driven by the government's desire to promote home ownership. If it wasn't for government intervention these loans would have NEVER been issued.

 

The Government never put a gun to my head and said take this mortgage once.  I took it knowing that I could afford it and that I hadn't went in over my head.  The only people that can be blamed for this problem is the bankers who in many cases turned their heads or over looked the ability of these people to pay of their mortgage because they knew it didn't matter.   And the individual who knew they couldn't afford their McMansion but went ahead and bought it anyway.

 

Thats why there are 3 empty houses on my block alone.  People were living above there means and to blame the government for trying to help people get a home is a bit retarded if you ask me.  Thats their jobs, to help the every day average joe.  If the bankers had been doing their part this mess would have never happend.  Simple as that.

The government may not have forced you to take the mortgage, but the government was encouraging (forcing) banks to take on mortgages of individuals who couldn’t afford them. Without the government’s involvement those 3 houses wouldn’t have been sold because the banks wouldn’t have approved the mortgage without government involvement in the system.

Here is something you can research, regardless of whether we’re talking about Fannie Mae or Freddy Mac in the United States or the CMHC in Canada, when governments get involved in the housing market to promote home ownership it has only ever created unsustainable housing bubbles that has resulted in lower affordability.


The goverment encouraged it, but the banks regulated it.  There was simply not enough safe guards put in to make sure the bankers were doing their job checking up on these people to make sure they even had a job.


How exactly do regulators push banks to lower their lending standards to promote home ownership while at the same time forcing these banks to maintain high lending standards?



HappySqurriel said:
damndl0ser said:
HappySqurriel said:
damndl0ser said:

The low quality loans that were issued were heavily driven by the government's desire to promote home ownership. If it wasn't for government intervention these loans would have NEVER been issued.

 

The Government never put a gun to my head and said take this mortgage once.  I took it knowing that I could afford it and that I hadn't went in over my head.  The only people that can be blamed for this problem is the bankers who in many cases turned their heads or over looked the ability of these people to pay of their mortgage because they knew it didn't matter.   And the individual who knew they couldn't afford their McMansion but went ahead and bought it anyway.

 

Thats why there are 3 empty houses on my block alone.  People were living above there means and to blame the government for trying to help people get a home is a bit retarded if you ask me.  Thats their jobs, to help the every day average joe.  If the bankers had been doing their part this mess would have never happend.  Simple as that.

The government may not have forced you to take the mortgage, but the government was encouraging (forcing) banks to take on mortgages of individuals who couldn’t afford them. Without the government’s involvement those 3 houses wouldn’t have been sold because the banks wouldn’t have approved the mortgage without government involvement in the system.

Here is something you can research, regardless of whether we’re talking about Fannie Mae or Freddy Mac in the United States or the CMHC in Canada, when governments get involved in the housing market to promote home ownership it has only ever created unsustainable housing bubbles that has resulted in lower affordability.


The goverment encouraged it, but the banks regulated it.  There was simply not enough safe guards put in to make sure the bankers were doing their job checking up on these people to make sure they even had a job.


How exactly do regulators push banks to lower their lending standards to promote home ownership while at the same time forcing these banks to maintain high lending standards?


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to check work history of the person looking for the loan.  The first home loan I got they never checked to even see if I had a job once.  They took my word for it.  That is what I meant, the government had no control over that kind of stuff.  Because the banks were supposed to be doing it and they simply weren't.  

Now trying to get a home loan is like getting your tooth pulled.  It totally sucks, you have to prove and document everything.  If they were doing this before they wouldn't have had the problem.  That is all I am saying.



"If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow."

Quote by- The Imortal John Wayne, the original BADASS!

 

 

 

damndl0ser said:
richardhutnik said:
thranx said:
damndl0ser said:

 



The current financial mess we have now is a result of a housing bubble that was produced, at least in part, by the government pushing home ownership.  People need shelter, but owning a home is not essential.  I also  remember a study where the higher the home ownership rate in a country, the worse off they are financially.


This simply is not true.  The reason we have this housing bubble "bust" was because the banks were giving high risk loans to people that they knew couldn't pay back the loans.  Then they would sell these loans to a 3rd party in bundles as high risk.  And so the bank had nothing really to lose because they sold these loans already.  This encouraged the bank to take even more high risk loans because it was making the banks plenty of money.  So the cycle repeated until it finally burst.

Everyone should own a home.  That doesn't mean it should be a McMansion, or one thats out of your price range.  Simply put thats why these people lost everything.  They were living above their means by using credit cards to pay for everything.  Then after they had no more credit on their cards, the lost everything.

I will disagree here. NO, everyone should not own a home.  If you can't afford to own, you rent.  Now, one can argue about the lack of shelter being a problem, but not owning a home.  A home is NOT an asset that generates income.  A home is a consumer of income, that has been set up by the tax code as the only way people can write off personsal expenses to keep up with the Jones or pay bills, via home equity loans.

The housing bubble was a mix of presumptions and benchmarks of home ownership was a success to all.  The government cheerleadered lenders to get innovative.  The Bush Admin banked on people in houses as a way to recovery and everyone  got stupid.



damndl0ser said:

I realize you will never change your mind on this and thats ok.  I am done trying to defend my position, I have made my point clear and so basically you will never change my opinion.  I'll just leave it at that.


To change my mind on this issue, I first need to agree that it's OK to take from people that which does not belong to me, just because I think I know better how to distribute it.

I will never think that's the right thing to do, so your right. I will not change my mind on this.