By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Why don't you believe in a god?

The short answer is if god made the Universe than who made god?

How many gods are needed before the explanation of something having to come from something else doesn't make sense because it would have to continue infinantly.



Around the Network

religion is regressive for humans. It holds them back from moral growth by constructing an evironment of supervision and doctrines that threaten punishment for infractions.

The religious member is never able to decide for himself what is wrong. Instead, he is more apt to please the supervisor in order to avoid punishment/secure reward.

In Kohlbergs stages of moral development,this confines the religion base to level 1 morality.

Level 1 (Pre-Conventional) 1. Obedience and punishment orientation (How can I avoid punishment?) 2. Self-interest orientation (What's in it for me?) Level 2 (Conventional) 3. Interpersonal accord and conformity (Social norms)(The good boy/good girl attitude) 4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation (Law and order morality) Level 3 (Post-Conventional) 5. Social contract orientation6. Universal ethical principles (Principled conscience)

 

This is evidenced and reinforced by heaven and hell. Most christians (and others) are so tightly wound up in the idea of punishment/reward, that the terminology and social interactions have become "God forgive your soul", "Don't believe in God? You'll wish you did when you get to heaven and God says 'I knew ye not' ", etc etc.

Of course, the hardcore religious will say that these kinds of people will never to go heaven either and that they are just fooling themselves. However, the hardcore religious have their own problems. Who goes to heaven. Only christians? only catholics? Only jews? A mix of all religious members?

The common consensii is that heaven is relegated to those who either love god, or those that simply follow the commandments. These consensii have two problems. Honoring ones parents is not a universal social virtue, and loving God is strict in which religion is right.

At the end of the day, religion is too restrictive of it's own merit and reward to be anything close to what an actual spirituality should consist of.



vlad321 said:
theARTIST0017 said:
vlad321 said:

So I have yet to see a good answer as to why we should listen to God and belive in him and not fairies and unicorns and cyclops and other such creatures which have exactly as much evidence as any god in any religion.

That's ok. Nobody's forcing you to believe in anything. You choose to believe in what you want that's sorta how free will works. If you don't believe in God now, most likely you're not going to believe in him later. Most people don't change.

You did not answer my questoin at all. Why do you believe in God instead of Centaurs or faries? There is jsut as much backing for those things as there is your God. In fact in the case of dragons, there is more backing for them than there is for your god, and that is 100% guaranteed.


Ok see this is where I stop because I see where this is headed.



NINTENDO

nintendo forever . . .

sapphi_snake said:
Smidlee said:
sapphi_snake said:
Smidlee said:
sapphi_snake said:
Smidlee said:
sapphi_snake said:
 


Fascinating... I always thought this "spiritual" experiences were nothing more than hallucinations caused by chemicals in the brain. Thanks for the info, will read the sources you listed.

You haven't heard of the God gene?    :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvijJTjZ8Rg

 The  idea that "spiritual experiences are nothing more than a hallucinations  caused by chemicals in the brain" is also a hallucination caused by chemicals in the brain

What does DMT have to do with genetics? IF you want to worship some desert dweller's hallucinations be my guest.

Just because drugs can make you see an  pink elephant that not really there does not mean that elephants are not real.  An inbalance in the body can make someone who is normally happy to have suicide thoughts which it why we say "That person is not themselves.

Well, for starters pink elephants are not real.
Google DMT and search it's effects and also read testimonials from people who have taken it. Also read the sorces that Armad stated in his posts.

When I first met my wife I did nice things for her because I was in love... in another words I have this warm fuzzy feeling as well sexual impulses. These feeling can be easily be explain by some chemicals in the brain. After being married for years this warm fuzzy feeling fades away.  I learned that unlike when we first met , the feelings comes after the action instead of the action after the feeling. It requires hard work to keep a marriage together but afterward the fuzzy feeling does come back from time to time.  I love my wife more now than I did when we first met.  I wonder if the only love some people ever know of is this fuzzy feeling so they will follow one woman( or man)  after another chasing after the feeling like a junkie on drugs.

There is a huge difference in some drug giving someone some kind of "spiritual" feeling and someone being a spiritual person. Drugs can give someone a false peace, joy, love while in reality their life is falling apart , they will steal from even their mother , and are very unhappy. Anyone who had a loved one hooked on drugs will know the difference. Someone who has real peace and love in their heart will have an effect on their bodies (brain) as well

What's love got to do with it? Seriously, I don't get the point of your first paragraph.

Spirituality doesn't exist. DMT is a substance produced by a gland in the brain. It causes hallucinations. It's normally kept in small quantities, and if the brain accidentally produces too much a person will experience hallucinations which people in the past considered to be spiritual/religions/prophetic visions. Also this substance is released abundantly in the brain when someone dies, hence the visions of people who have near-death experiences.

Spirituality doesn't exist. It's nothin more that hallucinations.

Also you can't get hooked on DMT and it's used in religions practices, even by some christians

Some have used the same logic to say love does not exist it just a chemical reaction. Another example;  Just because  there are physical causes to depression does not prove there is not mental causes that cause depression.  "Spirituality doesn't exist" is the point I'm debating.



Smidlee said:
sapphi_snake said:
Smidlee said:
sapphi_snake said:
Smidlee said:
sapphi_snake said:
 


Fascinating... I always thought this "spiritual" experiences were nothing more than hallucinations caused by chemicals in the brain. Thanks for the info, will read the sources you listed.

You haven't heard of the God gene?    :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvijJTjZ8Rg

 The  idea that "spiritual experiences are nothing more than a hallucinations  caused by chemicals in the brain" is also a hallucination caused by chemicals in the brain

What does DMT have to do with genetics? IF you want to worship some desert dweller's hallucinations be my guest.

Just because drugs can make you see an  pink elephant that not really there does not mean that elephants are not real.  An inbalance in the body can make someone who is normally happy to have suicide thoughts which it why we say "That person is not themselves.

Well, for starters pink elephants are not real.
Google DMT and search it's effects and also read testimonials from people who have taken it. Also read the sorces that Armad stated in his posts.

When I first met my wife I did nice things for her because I was in love... in another words I have this warm fuzzy feeling as well sexual impulses. These feeling can be easily be explain by some chemicals in the brain. After being married for years this warm fuzzy feeling fades away.  I learned that unlike when we first met , the feelings comes after the action instead of the action after the feeling. It requires hard work to keep a marriage together but afterward the fuzzy feeling does come back from time to time.  I love my wife more now than I did when we first met.  I wonder if the only love some people ever know of is this fuzzy feeling so they will follow one woman( or man)  after another chasing after the feeling like a junkie on drugs.

There is a huge difference in some drug giving someone some kind of "spiritual" feeling and someone being a spiritual person. Drugs can give someone a false peace, joy, love while in reality their life is falling apart , they will steal from even their mother , and are very unhappy. Anyone who had a loved one hooked on drugs will know the difference. Someone who has real peace and love in their heart will have an effect on their bodies (brain) as well.

You do not understand what DMT does despite my having explained it.  It's not just a hallucination causing chemical every and anytime you have a spiritual feeling, it's a DMT release, small if the feeling is faint, large if you hallucinate.  Trust me I've done a lot of studying on religious rituals and their connection with DMT release and the spiritual high it creates.  I've meditated, spoken in tongues, and even done some of the extreme practices that shamans use to prepare themselves for a spiritual journey.  I've eaten nothing but unsalted fish and plain white rice with water for a month (which puts you into a hallucinatory dreamlike state alone.)  I've spent an entire day in meditation, I've fasted.  All of these religious rituals come from different religions: christianity, buddhism, shamanism, etc.  Yet they all produce the exact same feeling, which is the exact same feeling one feels when they smoke DMT (and yes I've done that too.)

There is no difference between the effect of accidental release of DMT and the high produced through religious practices DMT=spirituality.  Plain and simple.  It's not some drug you get hooked on for the feeling, it is the feeling.  It's the feeling you've felt everytime you've felt spiritual, anytime you feel you've connected with god or whatever you believe in, it's a DMT release.   It's not even correct to call DMT a drug since it's produced endogenously, that means within your own body.  The textbook definition of a drug is "Any substance other than food or water that enters the body" thus since it does not enter the body but is produced within the brain it's not a drug but rather a neurochemical, no different than dopamine.  Which by the way is the chemical which produces that fuzzy feeling you had when you met your wife as well as the fuzzy feeling you get for staying with her.  It's the reward neurochemical and when you feel rewarded you feel good because of dopamine.  Now there is a neurochemical out there that releases during an orgasm (dopamine also releases with an orgasm, along with it's counter part prolactin which causes loss of libido, mood changes/depression; in men the onset is rapid which causes an urge to sleep [no I'm not making this up] and in women it's gradual thus the dopamine and good feeling is prominent for a longer period which makes them want to cuddle) which causes feelings of bonding but I'm hard pressed to remember it's name now, but that chemical is in large part responsible for your continued love for your wife.  The more you have sex with each other the more your brains are told that you are linked with one another.

The chemicals in our brain rule our worlds, like it or not.

And before I post I must remind you of the words of Aldous Huxley "Just because facts are ignored does not make them any less true"

 

Edit: I've found the chemical, it's oxytocin, it releases for birthing/nursing mothers, during sexual arousal and orgasm, and it causes a relief from fear, anxiety, and causes the persont to feel more trusting and thus creating a bonding moment.  Apparently it also inhibits the creation of a tolerance to many addictive drugs which interests me.  It is in my experience that a happy healthy couple of people on average are less likely to develop a habit, tolerance and addiction directly linked as tolerence leads to addiction (the more you need to get you high the more you'll be using, eventually you'll need a lot of the stuff and all the time to satisfy yourself.)  I'll have to look into that.



Around the Network
Armads said:
 

You do not understand what DMT does despite my having explained it.  It's not just a hallucination causing chemical every and anytime you have a spiritual feeling, it's a DMT release, small if the feeling is faint, large if you hallucinate.  Trust me I've done a lot of studying on religious rituals and their connection with DMT release and the spiritual high it creates.  I've meditated, spoken in tongues, and even done some of the extreme practices that shamans use to prepare themselves for a spiritual journey.  I've eaten nothing but unsalted fish and plain white rice with water for a month (which puts you into a hallucinatory dreamlike state alone.)  I've spent an entire day in meditation, I've fasted.  All of these religious rituals come from different religions: christianity, buddhism, shamanism, etc.  Yet they all produce the exact same feeling, which is the exact same feeling one feels when they smoke DMT (and yes I've done that too.)

There is no difference between the effect of accidental release of DMT and the high produced through religious practices DMT=spirituality.  Plain and simple.  It's not some drug you get hooked on for the feeling, it is the feeling.  It's the feeling you've felt everytime you've felt spiritual, anytime you feel you've connected with god or whatever you believe in, it's a DMT release.   It's not even correct to call DMT a drug since it's produced endogenously, that means within your own body.  The textbook definition of a drug is "Any substance other than food or water that enters the body" thus since it does not enter the body but is produced within the brain it's not a drug but rather a neurochemical, no different than dopamine.  Which by the way is the chemical which produces that fuzzy feeling you had when you met your wife as well as the fuzzy feeling you get for staying with her.  It's the reward neurochemical and when you feel rewarded you feel good because of dopamine.  Now there is a neurochemical out there that releases during an orgasm (dopamine also releases with an orgasm, along with it's counter part prolactin which causes loss of libido, mood changes/depression; in men the onset is rapid which causes an urge to sleep [no I'm not making this up] and in women it's gradual thus the dopamine and good feeling is prominent for a longer period which makes them want to cuddle) which causes feelings of bonding but I'm hard pressed to remember it's name now, but that chemical is in large part responsible for your continued love for your wife.  The more you have sex with each other the more your brains are told that you are linked with one another.

The chemicals in our brain rule our worlds, like it or not.

And before I post I must remind you of the words of Aldous Huxley "Just because facts are ignored does not make them any less true"


We also know serial killer brain are different than brains of other people. Even scientist warned we need to be careful how this data is interepreted. There is two possiblities

1) brain activity causes the person to become a serial killer

2) Serial killer causes the brain activity.

 we have many examples of the mental effecting someone physically as well as the physical effecting someone  mentally

 If chemical does in fact rule the world this would also included the  belief that chemicals ruled the world.



I don't have to find comfort in the idea that life somehow makes sense.



 

Armads said:
theARTIST0017 said:
vlad321 said:

So I have yet to see a good answer as to why we should listen to God and belive in him and not fairies and unicorns and cyclops and other such creatures which have exactly as much evidence as any god in any religion.

That's ok. Nobody's forcing you to believe in anything. You choose to believe in what you want that's sorta how free will works. If you don't believe in God now, most likely you're not going to believe in him later. Most people don't change.

What makes you think you have free will?

God or not there is no such thing as free will, the timeline of the universe is determined at it's very beginning (though that's not the beginning of time, just the universe, the big bang is the beginning of our universe because any event before the big bang would not have any effect on what happened after that event so therefore it is irrelevant to our universe just as our universe will have no effect upon the next one after the big crunch and next big bang.)

Oh and your bit about people not changing is totally wrong, people changes religions and belief systems all the time.  I was raised Roman catholic, studied buddhism breifly, then settled on an atheistic worldview which accepts logical assertions such as panpsychism versus eliminative materialism; either one is logically sound so I accept them both as possibilities. 

Studies show less than 1/2 of all Americans stay with the faith they were brought up in, most change once or twice in their lives.

No such thing as free will? You seem delusional.

BIG BANG THE BEGINNING? AND YOU CAN BRING ME PAPERS (FACTS) TO PROVE THIS "BIG BANG THEORY". Dude its called the Big Bang Theory for a reason. 

Yeah people change but most likely if you are raised a  certain religion, that is what you will stick to because its 1. what you know and 2. what you've believed your whole life.



NINTENDO

nintendo forever . . .

Smidlee said:
Armads said:
 

 


We also know Serial killer brain are different than brains of other people. Even scientist warned we need to be careful how this data is interepreted. There is two possiblities

1) brain activity causes the person to become a serial killer

2) Serial killer causes the brain activity.

 we have mant examples of the mental effecting the physical as well as the physical effecting someone  mentally

I'm in favor of option 1 as there is more and more evidence piling up showing that Neurology is better at explaining human behaviour than psychology.  At this point I wouldn't blame you for siding with the psychological side of the argument (that humans aren't entirely governed by chemicals but rather their environment; nature vs nurture) but I would readily disagree with you.



theARTIST0017 said:
Armads said:
theARTIST0017 said:
vlad321 said:

So I have yet to see a good answer as to why we should listen to God and belive in him and not fairies and unicorns and cyclops and other such creatures which have exactly as much evidence as any god in any religion.

That's ok. Nobody's forcing you to believe in anything. You choose to believe in what you want that's sorta how free will works. If you don't believe in God now, most likely you're not going to believe in him later. Most people don't change.

What makes you think you have free will?

God or not there is no such thing as free will, the timeline of the universe is determined at it's very beginning (though that's not the beginning of time, just the universe, the big bang is the beginning of our universe because any event before the big bang would not have any effect on what happened after that event so therefore it is irrelevant to our universe just as our universe will have no effect upon the next one after the big crunch and next big bang.)

Oh and your bit about people not changing is totally wrong, people changes religions and belief systems all the time.  I was raised Roman catholic, studied buddhism breifly, then settled on an atheistic worldview which accepts logical assertions such as panpsychism versus eliminative materialism; either one is logically sound so I accept them both as possibilities. 

Studies show less than 1/2 of all Americans stay with the faith they were brought up in, most change once or twice in their lives.

No such thing as free will? You seem delusional.

BIG BANG THE BEGINNING? AND YOU CAN BRING ME PAPERS (FACTS) TO PROVE THIS "BIG BANG THEORY". Dude its called the Big Bang Theory for a reason. 

Yeah people change but most likely if you are raised a  certain religion, that is what you will stick to because its 1. what you know and 2. what you've believed your whole life.

"it's called a theory for a reason" man, has no one yet told you that a theory in science must be supported by facts an evidence before it is accepted as a theory?  

Hey guess what?  Gravity is still just a theory

Scientists find definitive proof of the big bang in cosmic microwave background radiation

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=misconceptions-about-the-2005-03

An explanation about how scientists refined the theory to explain the problem of infinite density

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=echoes-from-before-the-bi

An article on how the BBT has stood the test of time and keeps showing itself to be correct

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-big-boost-for-the-big-b

Take note what the scientist says at the bottom of the article because I think it's of importance to the highly religious who denounce science "I am happy that the Big Bang theory passed this test, but it would have been more exciting if the theory had failed and we had to start looking for a new model of the evolution of the Universe"  Science is not dogma, scientists try to prove the BBT wrong all the time because science is about finding the truth, not sticking to old ideals dogmatically.  This is why we abandoned heliocentricity, geocentricity, the belief that the world is flat and other such things that were the science of yesteryear.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html

January 2001 edition of Scientific American "That the universe is expanding and cooling is the essence of the big bang theory. You will notice I have said nothing about an 'explosion' - the big bang theory describes how our universe is evolving, not how it began"- cosmologist P. J. E. Peebles 

Now personally I take the determinist side when discussing free will and determinism (there's also the third option compatiblism which argues that the two do not contradict and can both exist.)  But really I don't know if this is the thread for that discussion anyways, it actually does not matter if you believe in god or not; determinism vs free will is a complex argument.  You could argue for a god with free will or a godless deterministic universe, or you could argue for a godless universe with free will and a god who determined everything.  I think I'll start a separate thread for that because in here it might get too tangled with people arguing religion which tends to become more heated than that sort of philisophical debate.