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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Square-Enix doesn't understand why US gamers don't like turn-based battles

routsounmanman said:
jarrod said:
Severance said:

Action RPG needs Skills? , hm... lets see

KH playtime 30 hours with all extra bosses

toughest boss : Sephiroth

easiest way to win : pressing , XXX , YYY, XXX ,YYY ,XXX and be sucked

FF Playtime 80 with all extra bosses

toughest bosses : all extra bosses

easiest way to win : to actually get experience.

Jesus chirst, why the hell are you using abject shit like Kingdom Hearts?!

Go play some Monster Hunter, Ys or Demon's Souls and get back to us...


MONSTER HUNTER IS NOT AN RPG!!!

I'm sure he knows that. It not being an RPG doesn't mean that the combat isn't comparable though, especially when combat doesn't determine whether a game is an RPG or not. This is even more true, when we are comparing with  games that have a focus towards real-time action regardless of genre. Basically we must ask what disqualifies Monster Hunter as an RPG? The answer isn't its combat. That is the same reason why Metroid Prime for example isn't a First Person Shooter despite there not being a major distinction in terms of combat. It is the other gameplay elements, such as an open-world setting, and a fluid Main Quest/Sub-Quest system opposed with a sectioned one that disqualifies Monster Hunter. I would've said customization and menu-management would be other traits that make a distinction, but we all know Monster Hunter excels at that even more than some RPGs. 



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sc94597 said:
routsounmanman said:
jarrod said:
Severance said:

Action RPG needs Skills? , hm... lets see

KH playtime 30 hours with all extra bosses

toughest boss : Sephiroth

easiest way to win : pressing , XXX , YYY, XXX ,YYY ,XXX and be sucked

FF Playtime 80 with all extra bosses

toughest bosses : all extra bosses

easiest way to win : to actually get experience.

Jesus chirst, why the hell are you using abject shit like Kingdom Hearts?!

Go play some Monster Hunter, Ys or Demon's Souls and get back to us...


MONSTER HUNTER IS NOT AN RPG!!!

I'm sure he knows that. It not being an RPG doesn't mean that the combat isn't comparable though, especially when combat doesn't determine whether a game is an RPG or not. This is even more true, when we are comparing with  games that have a focus towards real-time action regardless of genre. Basically we must ask what disqualifies Monster Hunter as an RPG? The answer isn't its combat. That is the same reason why Metroid Prime for example isn't a First Person Shooter despite there not being a major distinction in terms of combat. It is the other gameplay elements, such as an open-world setting, and a fluid Main Quest/Sub-Quest system opposed with a sectioned one that disqualifies Monster Hunter. I would've said customization and menu-management would be other traits that make a distinction, but we all know Monster Hunter excels at that even more than some RPGs. 

It doesn't matter; it's like a reflex; someone mentions MH in a RPG discussion, MONSTER HUNTER IS NOT AN RPG!!!



Its really a problem but somehow noone is able to combine the tactical possibiltys of Round based battle and the fun and pace of an realtime battle.

 

For my taste the perfect battle system (atleast for 2D Rpgs) was shown by the ring menus plus realtime battle in Secret of Mana  and Secret of Evermore. Infact I cant imagine what could be done better back then it was perfect atleast for me. My only problem was that after this two games( mainly due to the lack of RPGs in Europe) I have seen the best what the SNES had to offer and I had to suffer greatly until I recognized that I can buy any game with Square standing on the box and it will be fun.

 

But ok for 3D worlds  its still another story. maybe they should mix the best together but how ? The fights in RPGs should be realtime imo, but they should also be very tactical. Its so easy (mostly) no matter if round based or not. I think standard RPG games could learn from WOW. Not as intense as WOW but somehow in this direction.

I could also  imagine that beating a boss could be not only a question of knowledge but also a question of how good you are on a controller---> Beat em up Style so you actually have to practise to fight some had bosses even though you know the perfect strategy to beat him it still should be hard (but not unfair).

Also Stats should play a role: But not that, if you have the right stats you can kill any monster. Some monsters should be unbeatable no matter how you are skilled unless you find the perfect balance Items the right tactic--> Monster Hunter and you have to be skilled on the pad atleast a little some button combinations to release special magic combos could make the fight itself a little more fun. Ofcourse just hard bosses would require all of that but any monster could require some of those things. It has to be implemented perfect and especially it has to have some sense in the context.

 

There is extreme potential in future RPGs. A little Diablo 2 and WOW combined with Final Fantasy and God of War and Tekken or any other good Fighting game.

 

Developers are afraid to change the old structures. Blizzard got a lot of things right but they are not perfect.

The perfect battle system could make one of the biggest games of all time. We are nowere, when it comes to addiction and videogames- I believe they will recognize in the future that there are so many possiblitys which noone has thought about yet.

The fights should be easy in the beginng but soon you discover your options and you learn that you need actually training on the pad or the motion controller, to use all your powers then you will recognize that your character has weaknesses and they can be overcome with atleast a concept and the more time you put the game the more you recognize how deep and balanced to whole game is and how many infinte possibilities you have to fight an opponent but then you recognize that the battles are not just boring grinding but they are actually fun. You want to fight because its fun like Tekken or Dead Or Alive/street Fighter in the beginnig its like God of War easy to handle for everyone and ofcourse the system has to be balanced perfectly and has to offer you an enormous variety of tactics. So that youu have to learn a different tactic in every area you are but you will find books and informations about the world which will give you a feeling on how the things work.

This game should  be fun for short time players which play a mission in GTA or kill some people in a FPS but also for people who want to play the whole weekend and want an interesting experience. So the battle system has to offer both somehow.

 

I hope there will be a game which has all of this. Since every game I played in my life has one or the other flaw it shoud be more RPG like more Open world Like more FPS like more Simulation like or it could have some platformer elements and some more racing elements a little bit like this game and a little bit like that:

The progammers shouldnt atop thinking in categories imo (also consumer should do that). They should start making things we have never seen before the elements are all there but someone has to be the genius who puts them together. If wrong done it will be a huge failure if right done it will be legendary success. I dont know how it can be done but I know it can be done. Every game gives me a different style of satisfaction. And some games give me satisfaction of more games combined such a fighting system could give you the short time satisfaction and the satisfaction of chess and the satisfaction of RPGs and the satisfaction of simulation games like Sim City. since you Build a character like a town. All this with an epic story line and a huge world with professional story and great multiplayer included in the single player but no MMORPG since they are intense and "heavy"

WOW meets GTA meets Tekken meets Fallout/Oblivion meets Call of Duty meets Sim City meet God of War something like that. And the world could also offer you some Mario Kart and some Classic Arcades with games from the ninetys and be open enough to play with 8 persons on a map and if noone is online the game still doesnt change yes that would be my dream and that also shows that I think that the western audience doesnt dislike roundbased RPGs but the promise of more strategy is not always true. And the advantages of the realtime battle are more important to them then the advantages of roundbased battle. FF 13 was good but we arent there yet and I doubt that it will be a Japanese devloper which will show us the light since they think to much about the differences between Japan and the West  instead of the common values



This seems like an unfair generalization to me because when there's a great turn based system it gets the praise it deserves (Persona 3 Portable  actually has a 93 on meta right now).  Personally as a reviewer I find that more turn based games are compelling than real time because turn based just needs to add an element of strategy to be interesting and a number of games that have come out during this gen have achieved that (Persona 4, RoF, Eternal Sonata none of which I would define as SRPG) where as Action based systems need to instill some difficulty by forcing you to mitigate damage basically every time. 

Too many Action RPG's make it simple to button mash your way through the entire game such as ToS 2 which I played simply by hitting the enemy up into the air and doing an air combo where no other enemies could hit me.  The only Action RPG's out of Japan I've played that succeed in this idea are SMT: Devil Summoner 2 and Demon's Souls as both games you can die pretty quickly if you stop thinking about your situation, but Action RPG's aren't my favorite genre so I haven't played a massive number of them.


Overall though SE has nothing to complain about on this matter because they haven't given reviewers a good turn based game that got unexpetedly low reviews.



...

Torillian said:

This seems like an unfair generalization to me because when there's a great turn based system it gets the praise it deserves (Persona 3 Portable  actually has a 93 on meta right now).  Personally as a reviewer I find that more turn based games are compelling than real time because turn based just needs to add an element of strategy to be interesting and a number of games that have come out during this gen have achieved that (Persona 4, RoF, Eternal Sonata none of which I would define as SRPG) where as Action based systems need to instill some difficulty by forcing you to mitigate damage basically every time. 

Too many Action RPG's make it simple to button mash your way through the entire game such as ToS 2 which I played simply by hitting the enemy up into the air and doing an air combo where no other enemies could hit me.  The only Action RPG's out of Japan I've played that succeed in this idea are SMT: Devil Summoner 2 and Demon's Souls as both games you can die pretty quickly if you stop thinking about your situation, but Action RPG's aren't my favorite genre so I haven't played a massive number of them.


Overall though SE has nothing to complain about on this matter because they haven't given reviewers a good turn based game that got unexpetedly low reviews.

they hve dqix. it gt lower thn expected review scores



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Well the main reason is because westerners have a habit of doing something awesome, then moving on to the next big thing, not taking an original concept from ultima and milking it to hell. Its no surprise that it was a western developer to come out with LittleBigPlanet and practicaly redefine a console platformer, PC gamers were always this way for a long time, now since the first Xbox released console gamers are now thinking the same, most westerners prefer their RPG's as non linear as possible.

And turn based games require skill? not really, you press a button it fights for you, you wait for the enemy to attack you do it again, life goes down?, time to  heal, repeat process, or in Final Fantasy XIII's case you push one button to chain all your future attacks together (literaly playing for you), no thanks.

Kingdom Hearts despite its real time battling system, is still on all accounts a JRPG, it was just as linear as the other JRPGS with a real time battling system i don't know why some people think its not a JRPG just because it used real time, i think you wanna try a series like Elder scrolls vs the typical FF game rather than KH.

Replying to the JRPG's having tougher bosses, its not that they are tough its that they SEEM tough because you will get hit every single time, one boss on FFXIII swung a sword that took 98% of your health down and you couldn't avoid, and other bosses would cast spells on you that kill you when the timer goes out, they aren't tough its just that you cannot avoid their attacks unless you use spells, buff yourself up or debuff them and what not, they make it seem tough because its gameplay is so linear you are forced to be hit. it doesn't require much work on the developers part making a tough boss when you can't avoid an attack and they overpower them too hell, i call that cheap.

I used that Vanille chick or w/e the hell her name is, on the boss to debuff him, and i killed him in like 30 secs, this was the last boss too, fastest boss i ever beat.