starcraft said: Sorry to tell you mate, but Chavez has NOTHING to do with the oil price going up. Thatis based entirely on mideast strife and high demand in the Chinese and American markets. Chavez has no control over oil-price. As for the nationalising of private companies, Chavez has made Venezuela a capitalist's nightmare (intentionally), however this will be devastating for the nation long-term if he isn't removed soon. There are many surviving socialist/communist political nations, but there is not a single prosperous nation on the planet that has a socialist ECONOMY!!! For those of you that will jump at that, China has a capitalist economy and a communist political environment, and Cuba is not exactly prosperous.

I like your post but I don't completely agree.  Oil prices have gone up because of Chavez.  He has nationalized his country's oil.  This means it will take much longer for some of the oil in the area to be processed because he scared away the private companies that had or would soon have the tech to process the oil.   About China, it doesn't have a capitalist economy.  It has a mixed market economy but with even less freedom than the mixed market in the US.  I agree that the actually economy in China is not run according to socialism or communism, though.  

FreeTalkLive rocks! said: starcraft said: Sorry to tell you mate, but Chavez has NOTHING to do with the oil price going up. Thatis based entirely on mideast strife and high demand in the Chinese and American markets. Chavez has no control over oil-price. As for the nationalising of private companies, Chavez has made Venezuela a capitalist's nightmare (intentionally), however this will be devastating for the nation long-term if he isn't removed soon. There are many surviving socialist/communist political nations, but there is not a single prosperous nation on the planet that has a socialist ECONOMY!!! For those of you that will jump at that, China has a capitalist economy and a communist political environment, and Cuba is not exactly prosperous. I like your post but I don't completely agree. Oil prices have gone up because of Chavez. He has nationalized his country's oil. This means it will take much longer for some of the oil in the area to be processed because he scared away the private companies that had or would soon have the tech to process the oil. About China, it doesn't have a capitalist economy. It has a mixed market economy but with even less freedom than the mixed market in the US. I agree that the actually economy in China is not run according to socialism or communism, though.

 Venezuela supplies 11% of the USA's oil and very little to anyone else.  The only influence Chavez has on oil-prices is his vote within the OPEC group.  Whilst he certainly hasn't voted to expand production (lowering prices), he's not done anything to push prices up either.  The nationalisation of part of one small countries oil industry is not enough to push up world oil prices (not yet anyway).

About China, a market economy is a capitalist economy.  It's getting to the point that one has more market freedom in China than in Russia.  For my part, I believe that the first major stepping stone towards capitalism for China's economy was allowing foreign companies to invest in the domestic market without a domestic partner.  The second will be the floating of the Chinese currency.

I'll wait for media-create numbers, don't trust these ones

jajajajaja chaves lost the elections jajaja here in venezuela everyone is soooo happy, finaly we win one election from this crazy guy

Hugo Chavez is crazy and I'm glad the vote didn't go through. If he was president for life, he would turn Venezuela into Cuba sucking the life out of his people. About the oil didn't Chavez take over another companies oil rig off the coast even though they paid him to have the oil rig there? Stuff like that makes him unpredictable and not good for Venezuela.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_constitution

Just to state that Chavez lost.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_eu/russia_election

And this is why Putin scares me. 99% voter turnouts in a war torn area basically under military control, with 93% of the vote going to Putin allies. I think Putin is a far more concerning person that Chavez, if for no other reason than Russia is a much more powerful country than Venezuela.

My friends, Fox News and the dirtbags of the corporate media are lying to you about Russia and Venezuela. Find out the truth here:

 

The impact of Chavez on poverty: http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela_2007_07.pdf

The abysmal coverage of Venezuela by our crappy mass media: http://www.cepr.net/content/view/1269/45/

Excellent (and often uproarious) coverage of Russia: http://www.exile.ru/

Topnotch news coverage of both countries: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/

 

Greer said: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_constitution Just to state that Chavez lost. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_eu/russia_election And this is why Putin scares me. 99% voter turnouts in a war torn area basically under military control, with 93% of the vote going to Putin allies. I think Putin is a far more concerning person that Chavez, if for no other reason than Russia is a much more powerful country than Venezuela.

Don't underestimate Venezuela, if latin America ends up being entirely anti-USA expect there to be serious problems for America.

However Putin is still more frightening, with all his nukes and his seeming attempts to restart the cold war. 

Hm. I think things are about to devolve into the kind of internet politics arguments that I normally stay 300 meters away from.


Looking over everyones posts, I've noticed that the fault line falls between the economic system and the political system.

It seems to me like almost everyone agrees that Chavez has done some good for the economic system in regards to poverty (though there is much debate as to how much and at what cost), while
being concerned about what he's doing to the political system in regards to democracy and civil rights (once again with the degree being the point of argument)

Am I right there?

If so, this referendum is largely in regards to his political dealings. Is he a dictator or not? Is he abusing the system to reach that status? And what happens when he finally loses an election?

Now so far, he has acknowledged the referendum loss, accepted it, and stated that he will still seek constitutional changes through other democratic means. In my mind, this is a pretty big strike against the dictatorship claim. Oh sure he said he'd still try to make changes, but how often does a politician lose an election and state "eh, I never really cared about doing that anyways"

You are half right. Its very difficult to deny that Chavez is eroding human and civil rights in Venezuela. However I don't believe he has any economic credibility either. Centralizing banks, fixing the currency, nationalizing foreign firms? He is creating an investors nightmare, and Venezuela will have no source or money should the oil price slip in any meaningful way. Add to this the upward pressure his policies are putting on inflation and you have the beginnings of a long-term economic disaster, however well he is able to mask that in the short-term.