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Forums - General Discussion - Krugman: Spend Now, Save Later

mrstickball said:
numonex said:

Improved efficiency and improved technology is fancy talk for job cuts. This will save companies on labour costs, increase production rates, increase profit margins for companies and higher return for share holders of the company. Corporate Communists are starving the people, more job losses, governments fudging the figures to support the Corporate Communists. 

If you are on the wrong side of the equation you are totally screwed.


Before you speak, you really need a few lessons on economics. Or else, your going to continue to look very uninformed.

As Happy Squirrel has stated, productivity gains always have had net benefits to everyone in the end. Look through history, and you find that people will gain and lose jobs over new technology. Overall, it increases the standard of living, because the gains allow for more product to be made at a lower cost, which will inherantly reduce the cost of the product, making it more available to everyone. An example would be air conditioners. In the 1970's, cooling units inside of poverty-striken American's houses was just 5% of the total base of people in poverty (5% had air conditioning). Today, its 75%. This isn't because government did it, but because AC units dropped in price, relative to earnings by those in poverty.

For a current example, look at indians in the Amazon - they have no infrastructure, few tools, ect, but 100% employment rate. Do they live better day to day than we do? Personally, I think not.

Another case and point: Would you be against the invention of a free energy device? Something that would give clean, free, unlimited energy to everyone? According to your statements, you would be against such a device, because of the millions of jobs lost in energy companies.

Since 2001, job creation rate has remained anemic.  You hardly had any month creating more than 150000 new jobs a month in the United States.  It hasn't been there.  People who had been working had put in more hours, thus the productivity gains that were more (as seen in GDP).  Temp work increased also.  There is NOTHING that says that productivity efficiencies shiouldd result in a better life for anyone outside of the owner of the business that has productivity increased.  What the businesses did, with the increases in producitivity wasn't to redeploy people, but let them go.  To maximize profits, the trendy thing to do was to let people go.

Again, there is nothing to indicate productivity gains should benefit everyone.  Why should it, unless you are going on faith alone, to say it doess.



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mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
TheRealMafoo said:
numonex said:

The Defense Budget spending needs to be drastically reduced. Slash the Defense spending and bring the troops back. Trillions of tax payers money has been wasted on two wars in the Middle East.  Pension funds have been raided to fund these Middle East wars. Still chasing ghosts in the desert for almost 10 years and will continue on forever.


I agree we need to end the wars and come home, and we need to close our bases all over the world. But while we spend way to much on the military, at least it's what we are suposed to spend federal dollars on.

The federal governments job it to protect the US from foreign countries. It's not the responsibility of the federal government to make sure the people eat. Nothing in our founding documents said anything about taking care of anyone.

Taking care of people is a relatively new concept (last 100 years). When we fall, and one day we will fall, historians are going to look back and see why, and they will equate the beginning of the end, to the day we chose to provide for our citizens. 

This is the preamble to the Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

While you can say the government has no role to insure that people are able to eat, I believe the preamble, and "promote the general Welfare" says something about making sure the citizens don't starve.  There is a problem that happens when people feel they can't survive, get food to eat, and have a chance to "secure the Blessings of Liberty" for themselves and future generations.  Starving people refuse to care about anything, and the well being of the country.  Liberty without blessings will end up not really being liberty at all.

...So how many welfare programs did Washington, Adams, Jefferson or any of the other founders that wrote the preamble build when they were president?

If there is mass starvation in the United States, due to people not having jobs, and being unable to feed themselves, would you say that the fruits of liberty are being shared?  The founders lived during a time when most people worked ojn farms, and there was plenty of land to go around.  America is no longer an agriculturally based economy.



richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:
richardhutnik said:
TheRealMafoo said:
numonex said:

The Defense Budget spending needs to be drastically reduced. Slash the Defense spending and bring the troops back. Trillions of tax payers money has been wasted on two wars in the Middle East.  Pension funds have been raided to fund these Middle East wars. Still chasing ghosts in the desert for almost 10 years and will continue on forever.


I agree we need to end the wars and come home, and we need to close our bases all over the world. But while we spend way to much on the military, at least it's what we are suposed to spend federal dollars on.

The federal governments job it to protect the US from foreign countries. It's not the responsibility of the federal government to make sure the people eat. Nothing in our founding documents said anything about taking care of anyone.

Taking care of people is a relatively new concept (last 100 years). When we fall, and one day we will fall, historians are going to look back and see why, and they will equate the beginning of the end, to the day we chose to provide for our citizens. 

This is the preamble to the Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

While you can say the government has no role to insure that people are able to eat, I believe the preamble, and "promote the general Welfare" says something about making sure the citizens don't starve.  There is a problem that happens when people feel they can't survive, get food to eat, and have a chance to "secure the Blessings of Liberty" for themselves and future generations.  Starving people refuse to care about anything, and the well being of the country.  Liberty without blessings will end up not really being liberty at all.

...So how many welfare programs did Washington, Adams, Jefferson or any of the other founders that wrote the preamble build when they were president?

If there is mass starvation in the United States, due to people not having jobs, and being unable to feed themselves, would you say that the fruits of liberty are being shared?  The founders lived during a time when most people worked ojn farms, and there was plenty of land to go around.  America is no longer an agriculturally based economy.

But there were still poor and needy people during the founding father's time, no? Welfare means a lot more than food, buddy.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

TheRealMafoo said:
richardhutnik said:
While you can say the government has no role to insure that people are able to eat, I believe the preamble, and "promote the general Welfare" says something about making sure the citizens don't starve.  There is a problem that happens when people feel they can't survive, get food to eat, and have a chance to "secure the Blessings of Liberty" for themselves and future generations.  Starving people refuse to care about anything, and the well being of the country.  Liberty without blessings will end up not really being liberty at all.

Welfare in 1776 didn't remotely mean what it means today. If it did, it would not have taken 150 years to use the world in the way it's interpreted today.

You can't change the meaning of words, and then say that's what the constitution meant.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but did you think he was using the word welfare in the sense of the government program?  Because if so then you're wrong. 



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Final-Fan said:
TheRealMafoo said:
richardhutnik said:
While you can say the government has no role to insure that people are able to eat, I believe the preamble, and "promote the general Welfare" says something about making sure the citizens don't starve.  There is a problem that happens when people feel they can't survive, get food to eat, and have a chance to "secure the Blessings of Liberty" for themselves and future generations.  Starving people refuse to care about anything, and the well being of the country.  Liberty without blessings will end up not really being liberty at all.

Welfare in 1776 didn't remotely mean what it means today. If it did, it would not have taken 150 years to use the world in the way it's interpreted today.

You can't change the meaning of words, and then say that's what the constitution meant.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but did you think he was using the word welfare in the sense of the government program?  Because if so then you're wrong. 

The actual meaning is quoted apparently in either case.

Thomas Jefferson actually is quoted to explaining the clause.

“[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.”

It's ironically a limit of power unlike most "general welfare" clauses which are meant to increase government power.  Originally said clause actually did prevent welfare taxes and even taxes that were meant to be a deterrant like sin taxes.



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richardhutnik said:

Since 2001, job creation rate has remained anemic.  You hardly had any month creating more than 150000 new jobs a month in the United States.  It hasn't been there.  People who had been working had put in more hours, thus the productivity gains that were more (as seen in GDP).  Temp work increased also.  There is NOTHING that says that productivity efficiencies shiouldd result in a better life for anyone outside of the owner of the business that has productivity increased.  What the businesses did, with the increases in producitivity wasn't to redeploy people, but let them go.  To maximize profits, the trendy thing to do was to let people go.

Again, there is nothing to indicate productivity gains should benefit everyone.  Why should it, unless you are going on faith alone, to say it doess.


Throughout history there has been a relationship between increasing productivity of an economy and increased wellbeing of the average citizen. It is not an instantaneous relationship, and the productivity gains may not be the same as the ones that are currently tracked.

I’m not certain that everyone will agree with me, but I would personally argue that the reason wages have remained static (or declined) is because manipulation of the economy has decreased productivity in many western nations. In order to "Correct" the fallout of the dot-com bubble the United States (and many western nations) pushed interest rates to near record lows and increased government spending. One of the core results of this action was growth in the economy in careers that offered little or no benefit to the economy but profited from the asset bubbles that were forming due to such (insane) policies; consider the massive explosion in day-traders and real-estate flippers and how they offer no goods or services that people would willingly pay for.

With a smaller and smaller portion of the population involved in work of value, the increases in productivity went mostly towards maintaining the standard of living of everyone.



HappySqurriel said:
richardhutnik said:

Since 2001, job creation rate has remained anemic.  You hardly had any month creating more than 150000 new jobs a month in the United States.  It hasn't been there.  People who had been working had put in more hours, thus the productivity gains that were more (as seen in GDP).  Temp work increased also.  There is NOTHING that says that productivity efficiencies shiouldd result in a better life for anyone outside of the owner of the business that has productivity increased.  What the businesses did, with the increases in producitivity wasn't to redeploy people, but let them go.  To maximize profits, the trendy thing to do was to let people go.

Again, there is nothing to indicate productivity gains should benefit everyone.  Why should it, unless you are going on faith alone, to say it doess.


Throughout history there has been a relationship between increasing productivity of an economy and increased wellbeing of the average citizen. It is not an instantaneous relationship, and the productivity gains may not be the same as the ones that are currently tracked.

I’m not certain that everyone will agree with me, but I would personally argue that the reason wages have remained static (or declined) is because manipulation of the economy has decreased productivity in many western nations. In order to "Correct" the fallout of the dot-com bubble the United States (and many western nations) pushed interest rates to near record lows and increased government spending. One of the core results of this action was growth in the economy in careers that offered little or no benefit to the economy but profited from the asset bubbles that were forming due to such (insane) policies; consider the massive explosion in day-traders and real-estate flippers and how they offer no goods or services that people would willingly pay for.

With a smaller and smaller portion of the population involved in work of value, the increases in productivity went mostly towards maintaining the standard of living of everyone.

I agree with you.

Between the bubbles being burst, as well as our trade deficits being strongly in the negative, why should we expect salaries to increase? What underlying 'thing' has America done in the past ~20 years to simply improve salaries? The truth is, we've got to where we are at through manipulations.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Final-Fan said:
TheRealMafoo said:
richardhutnik said:
While you can say the government has no role to insure that people are able to eat, I believe the preamble, and "promote the general Welfare" says something about making sure the citizens don't starve.  There is a problem that happens when people feel they can't survive, get food to eat, and have a chance to "secure the Blessings of Liberty" for themselves and future generations.  Starving people refuse to care about anything, and the well being of the country.  Liberty without blessings will end up not really being liberty at all.

Welfare in 1776 didn't remotely mean what it means today. If it did, it would not have taken 150 years to use the world in the way it's interpreted today.

You can't change the meaning of words, and then say that's what the constitution meant.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but did you think he was using the word welfare in the sense of the government program?  Because if so then you're wrong. 

Welfare in the context of the preamble, I believe means "the general state of well being of a nation".  Back in the day, it was believed churches, familes, and communities would chip in.  I spoke on cases where things happen to break down.  If the economy totally melts down, and people are without, the nation won't work.  Third-world nations have issues of property rights, crime, and civil wars, due in part due to economic lack.  What I was saying here is it is important that a nation be well-governed and the general welfare of those in the nation be lifted.  It is key that liberty bears fruit for people.  The pursuit of happiness does also refer to material wealth, according to the context of the time.



richardhutnik said:

Welfare in the context of the preamble, I believe means "the general state of well being of a nation".  Back in the day, it was believed churches, familes, and communities would chip in.  I spoke on cases where things happen to break down.  If the economy totally melts down, and people are without, the nation won't work.  Third-world nations have issues of property rights, crime, and civil wars, due in part due to economic lack.  What I was saying here is it is important that a nation be well-governed and the general welfare of those in the nation be lifted.  It is key that liberty bears fruit for people.  The pursuit of happiness does also refer to material wealth, according to the context of the time.


It should never be the business of government to chose a group of peoples rights to sacrifice, for the welfare of others. Government does not earn money. Every dollar they give to someone, they first have to take it from someone else.

Redistribution of wealth by the government, is an infringements on peoples rights. There is no getting around that. You can try and justify why it's the "right thing to do" all you want, but in the end, it will go against everything this country was founded on.

For some (like Obama), that's unimportant. For me however, it's very important.



TheRealMafoo said:
richardhutnik said:

Welfare in the context of the preamble, I believe means "the general state of well being of a nation".  Back in the day, it was believed churches, familes, and communities would chip in.  I spoke on cases where things happen to break down.  If the economy totally melts down, and people are without, the nation won't work.  Third-world nations have issues of property rights, crime, and civil wars, due in part due to economic lack.  What I was saying here is it is important that a nation be well-governed and the general welfare of those in the nation be lifted.  It is key that liberty bears fruit for people.  The pursuit of happiness does also refer to material wealth, according to the context of the time.


It should never be the business of government to chose a group of peoples rights to sacrifice, for the welfare of others. Government does not earn money. Every dollar they give to someone, they first have to take it from someone else.

Redistribution of wealth by the government, is an infringements on peoples rights. There is no getting around that. You can try and justify why it's the "right thing to do" all you want, but in the end, it will go against everything this country was founded on.

For some (like Obama), that's unimportant. For me however, it's very important.

Beyond the principled objection to wealth transfers, it has never been shown that transferring money from one group to another has ever resulted in the beneficiary actually improving their economic standing because of it. An interesting video series I was pointed to the other day has Milton Friedman making an argument that many of the programs designed to benefit the poor in reality help a very different group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wx5PYZIWcQ&feature=related

Personally, I would say there is some validity to his argument is (somewhat) flawed because the increased money does not increase availability it increases the cost; and no one ends up in a position where they’re actually better off.