Doobie_wop said: Just looked up a few more articles, watched some footage and yeah, Israel screwed up pretty badly and the article you posted is missing a lot of info. Internation waters and according to footage Israel fired shot's first, the ship raised a white flag and Israel still attacked.

The ship should have gone to an Israeli port first. Instead the ship atempted to bypass Israel and was heading straight to Gaza. As we all know you can't trust terrorists to distrubte aid fairly so therefore it needed to go to Israel just like every other bit of aid. They could have been sending Hamas weapons or anything that could be used against other people. Thats why it is standard procedure to head to port first.

badgenome said: Doobie_wop said: Just looked up a few more articles, watched some footage and yeah, Israel screwed up pretty badly and the article you posted is missing a lot of info. Internation waters and according to footage Israel fired shot's first, the ship raised a white flag and Israel still attacked. According to the ICRC: 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they: (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture

Soo... what were the people on the ship doing that was illegal? The blockade is also an illegal one breaching International Law apparently, so I'm still not getting why Israel had to go all commando and attack a ship that was 28 miles away from their territorial limit. Even if everything I've said was wrong, it doesn't mean that invading a ship of 600 civilian's, killing and wounding a few, opening fire before boarding and rejecting a white flag is still right on Israel's part.

Lostplanet22 said: Xen said: First they rush the bayonet, and then they cry. How typical of these "peace activists". This whole mission was planned for provocation and for this exact result... they've been repeatedly warned not to continue along their current route, and a country definitely has the right to enforce their laws and protect itself. It's too bad that this'll be turned against Israeli image, as it always does. One point though...it was not in their country this accident happened on international waters.    And on the video's I don't see an activist with weapons (so far?).

Badgenome said it.

FootballFan said: Doobie_wop said: Just looked up a few more articles, watched some footage and yeah, Israel screwed up pretty badly and the article you posted is missing a lot of info. Internation waters and according to footage Israel fired shot's first, the ship raised a white flag and Israel still attacked. The ship should have gone to an Israeli port first. Instead the ship atempted to bypass Israel and was heading straight to Gaza. As we all know you can't trust terrorists to distrubte aid fairly so therefore it needed to go to Israel just like every other bit of aid. They could have been sending Hamas weapons or anything that could be used against other people. Thats why it is standard procedure to head to port first.

They weren't terrorist's though, they were people bringing aid to Palestine, they shouldn't have to be stopped by anyone unless there was prior warning that the ship held weapon's or a dangerous terrorist group. The ship was also in International water's which mean's it was none of Israel's business, they have the right to protect themselves but only within a certain limit, otherwise they could just drive into any country they wanted and set up camp. 

Doobie_wop said: ... They weren't terrorist's though, they were people bringing aid to Palestine, they shouldn't have to be stopped by anyone unless there was prior warning that the ship held weapon's or a dangerous terrorist group. The ship was also in International water's which mean's it was none of Israel's business, they have the right to protect themselves but only within a certain limit, otherwise they could just drive into any country they wanted and set up camp.

Israel need to control everything going in and out of Gaza. Aid, people, and weapons. If they lose that control, Gaza becomes a political nightmare and they have another short and devastating war where even more civilians die on both sides.

Now, it was wrong under 'international law' to attack that boat. And it certainly shouldn't had led to casualties. But the only way tensions in the region can be managed is if unauthorised (by Israel) ships and people can't enter Gaza. A sad fact, and mostly due to the Gazan leadership being a disorganised mob rather than a citizen-serving government.

Hamas actually said they win either way - if they get the aid, they win; if Israel intercepted the ship, they win. But that shouldn't be their motivation! They've put themselves in a position where they win only if their people lose (Israel uses force) and that's not the mark of a real government. Israel need a credible counterpart to negotiate with, and Hamas is not that. The Palestinians need to sort out a democratic, moderate government that can keep the peace in Gaza and therefore negotiate effectively with Isreal for more autonomous freedom. That's the only way the situation can be resolved.

Doobie_wop said: badgenome said: Doobie_wop said: Just looked up a few more articles, watched some footage and yeah, Israel screwed up pretty badly and the article you posted is missing a lot of info. Internation waters and according to footage Israel fired shot's first, the ship raised a white flag and Israel still attacked. According to the ICRC: 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they: (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture   Soo... what were the people on the ship doing that was illegal? The blockade is also an illegal one breaching International Law apparently, so I'm still not getting why Israel had to go all commando and attack a ship that was 28 miles away from their territorial limit. Even if everything I've said was wrong, it doesn't mean that invading a ship of 600 civilian's, killing and wounding a few, opening fire before boarding and rejecting a white flag is still right on Israel's part.

"28 miles away from their territorial limits" has nothing to do with anything as a country doesn't typically blockade itself.

Even if they opened fire on the flotilla - as in, not a warning shot - before boarding (also, I'm not sure why you'd open fire on a ship after you've boarded it), this is not illegal provided they warned them first.

I can't wait for the day when the Western world wakes up and makes Israel the pariah that they've been trying to become.

 

We didn't give South Africa this much latitude. Crippling global sanctions could be just as effective here.

For anyone curious, here is a list of goods Israel doesn't allow into the Gaza Strip. I don't want to pretend I know anything about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict but that list is pretty comprehensive. Maybe someone can explain to me how you can weaponize chocolate? Or wheelchairs?

While confrontations were inevitable, this seems to me like a mission first and foremost to break the blockade of goods and provide the Palestinian people with goods that they've been deprived of.

Soleron said: Doobie_wop said: ... They weren't terrorist's though, they were people bringing aid to Palestine, they shouldn't have to be stopped by anyone unless there was prior warning that the ship held weapon's or a dangerous terrorist group. The ship was also in International water's which mean's it was none of Israel's business, they have the right to protect themselves but only within a certain limit, otherwise they could just drive into any country they wanted and set up camp.  Israel need to control everything going in and out of Gaza. Aid, people, and weapons. If they lose that control, Gaza becomes a political nightmare and they have another short and devastating war where even more civilians die on both sides. Now, it was wrong under 'international law' to attack that boat. And it certainly shouldn't had led to casualties. But the only way tensions in the region can be managed is if unauthorised (by Israel) ships and people can't enter Gaza. A sad fact, and mostly due to the Gazan leadership being a disorganised mob rather than a citizen-serving government. Hamas actually said they win either way - if they get the aid, they win; if Israel intercepted the ship, they win. But that shouldn't be their motivation! They've put themselves in a position where they win only if their people lose (Israel uses force) and that's not the mark of a real government. Israel need a credible counterpart to negotiate with, and Hamas is not that. The Palestinians need to sort out a democratic, moderate government that can keep the peace in Gaza and therefore negotiate effectively with Isreal for more autonomous freedom. That's the only way the situation can be resolved.

I know what your saying is right, but here's the problem, with a blockade in place Palestine is screwed. I don't think people understand how bad that blockade has ruined the area, I went to Lebanon recently and I saw more homeless Palestinian's take refuge in an already war torn country just so they could escape the life that Israel has forced on them. Israel's actions aren't helping their cause, the random attack's on innocent people, the filtering of their supplies and building home's on Palestinian land is creating more Hamas member's than Israel can even handle.

When your home is like a prison, you have foreign soldier's walking into your home and taking everything by force and random death's that are apparently 'accidents' keep occurring, then I'm not surprised that the people of Palestine would look on to a group like Hamas to try and fix their problem's. Politic's was obviously tried for 20 year's and thank's to the fault of both Palestine and Israel it didn't work out, other countries obviously turn a blind eye to the situation and you have one country with a donkey and stick vs a tank, this can't lead to a happy ending. 

Israel should have tried to resolve the situation year's ago when it was still possible, as of now it isn't until a full blown war occurrs which sadly will probably happen soon.

The ship had weapons on it. Molotov cocktails from my understanding.

The ships also had assault rifles.

10 Israeli soldiers were wounded, with TWO in critical condition. If this was a peaceful ship, then by golly, why were so many Israeli's hurt? And the soldiers hurt were mostly from GUNSHOT WOUNDS.

However, I recognize this as a PR atrocity for Israel. 'Peaceful' protesters being murdered by the awful Israeli's. Despite Israel usually doing the right thing, this was a no-win situation. Either they get to Gaza and unload their bombs, or they get intercepted and this happens.