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spiffiness on 07 May 2010

I read an article in the paper today that said that in Germany, people can't retire until they're 67 and almost all of the workforce pays taxes compared to Greece where they can retire at 58 and only 20% pay taxes with widespread corruption. If I were German, I'd be upset at having to bail them out, too.



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Lostplanet22 on 07 May 2010

It is not the debt that is the problem...it is paying the debt...

People don't believe anymore Greece can pay back their debts:

First you could rent Greece money with 1-2% interest....Then it went up to 5%.....Then to 10%....to a point where it just get impossible for Greece to rent money...

A bad day for financial markets....For companies in the Euro market who sell stuff overseas this is a great time... Thx to the Weak Euro stuff gets cheaper and we will see a rise of export, investments in the EU zone...

For every person losing money their is one winning.... Just hope for yourself you are on the Winning side.



 

Spagoodle on 07 May 2010
DirtyP2002 said:

@spagoodle

The growth or the income of most nations is declining while the expenses of the countries are increasing. And as if this is not scary enough, the countries are already sitting on HUGE debts.

Every state has a debt. Not a small one, a huge one. And could you give me an example of one nation that is actually decreasing the debts right now? Is there on state (with industrial standards) that earns more money than it spends? Think about it, every nation is getting deeper and deeper in the reds. When our welfare is based on 30 trillion USD debt (only USA, Japan, Europe!) and it is growing every day, you have to be concerned. There might come this one day when someone wants to get his money back. I don't want to be a prophet of doom, but the situation we are in is very crucial.

And with the upcoming problems like global warming ahead, I lose my optimism.

 

To say the growth of most nations is declining is true if you look at the very short term. The last few years we have seen a global recession and that has without a doubt slowed growth. If things remain how they are now you should be worried, but let me give your some reasons to be optimistic. First even now most industrialized nations are still growing. Secondly if we look at the world economy over the last 20 years you will see a huge amount of growth. The world economy was booming in the 90's and country's like China and India have seen incredible growth over that time period. If we can get out of this recession we should see most nations return to a health rate of growth. In other words its a problem, but one that should correct its self once the economy is better shape.

Is any nation decreasing its debt right now, short answer, no. I'm sure there are exceptions. The worlds biggest economic powers are all increasing their debt. Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing, as odd as that sounds, and some nations are doing a far better job when it comes to the debt they have. When we talking about debt and the impact its going to have you will find a lot of different schools of though so I'm not going to try and sell you on mine. I will say that I agree with you that you have to be concerned with who's lending you money. America and China have a relationship which insures that China will not be looking to have its loans payed anytime in the near future. Country's getting loans through the world bank on the other hand are often put in situations were they are forced to pay back bad loans in relatively short period of time. The point I'm trying to make is you have to look at the expectations and realities that come a long with the debt and not just the number its self.

I will say the amount of debt among western nations is concerning. America is doing nothing to address its debt, which in the long term will not be good. Some country's in Europe are doing a far better job of managing their debt imo. Its a very complex issue and I won't say you are wrong to be concerned, just realize that debt by itself isn't necessarily going to doom us.



GrotesqueOne on 07 May 2010

this is what happens when you prop up the world economy with fake stimulis money, eventually the bubble will burst. this is just a prequel of whats to come.



NinjaguyDan on 07 May 2010
Killy_Vorkosigan said:

To sum up :
- Subprime crisis + Deregulation since Clinton's era makes all bank go near bankruptcy
- Banks whine to death and asks states to give them cash so they don't die
- All states boast on bailout plan by giving multibajillon to bank's pockets to 'save economy'... without any compensation, and thus raising their own deficit
- Banks makes money by speculating on states' debts
- Banks pays back the states and the interests in less than two years, without a thanks
- Banks can now makes moar money with the aid of notation agency saying : 'oh, this state is in deficit, let's pwn them'

tl;dr version :
Bank's deficit is now states' deficit. => You pay. End of story.

In other words, privatize the profits, sociailize the losses.



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Naum on 07 May 2010

They have only themselves to blame I mean WTF were they thinking??

They stop working at the age of 50-55(majority of them).
Pretty much no one pays any taxes.
They all get 2 extra paychecks each year for free!!.



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Kasz216 on 07 May 2010
hellraider said:
World's economy is domed cuz of Greece's fault.Yay we are famous!

I would like the USD-Euro 1:1 analogy in gaming prices to end but I know nothing about economics so not sure if sth like that will happen or the complete opposite.



PS:I am far from proud of my country's situation btw :/

If anything the 1:1 analogy will end... with Euro prices raising at this point.



ssj12 on 07 May 2010

I saw on the news that the major crash for the DOW was an error on someone's part. They traded something in the billions instead of the millions like it should have been. Those extra zeros can hurt it seems.



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Kasz216 on 07 May 2010
Spagoodle said:
yanamaster said:
Spagoodle said:
yanamaster said:
Well it must be said that what's happening to the euro and to greece is the fault of Goldman Sachs as they were the company to approach Greece in 2000 offering to touch up their general fiscal results so that greece could enter the Euro zone more quickly. This procedure was carried out for a couple years and resembled what Enron did with their mark to market accounting scheme, only the other way around. Instead of adding in profits that may have not ever be realized Greece kept pushing some losses to future years so that they would be spotless in the short term.

The situation would ridiculously easy to handle if it were not for the Euro. Under normal circumstances Greece would have just devaluated their currency by some 40-50% and everything would be okay. Now they have to take the long hard way around the subject...all thanks to their impatience.

 

Thats a fair point but Greece was in on it. They still deserve some blame.

Of course, they contributed to this situation in more ways than one but it just strikes me that Goldman Sachs was exposed of doing this and as such has not received so much as a fart from a regulatory institution in the US over it.

 

In fact they came also to Poland a couple years ago offering the same deal and saying that we should look at Greece if we want proof of results. We declined them because the ministry of finance thought that it looked "dodgy" and that is a quote coming from my macro prof. who was a vice minister a the time in 2005. Currently he is a bigwig in the central europe IMF division and provides us with some very incredible news about the financial markets all over the world including the early signs of how the crisis was set into motion

I totally agree with you. Goldman Sachs deserves blame and the US needs better laws to discourage actions like what happened in Greece. The US needs a big change in how we regulate our banking system. Goldman Sachs has also done some flat out immoral things here in States as well, so I do understand why people in the EU are upset.

How is the US going to charge someone for doing that for the Greeks?

It's not in the US's jurisdiction... you know who's jurisdiction it is?

The Greeks.

 



Kasz216 on 07 May 2010
yanamaster said:
Slimebeast said:
yanamaster said:
Slimebeast said:
yanamaster said:
Slimebeast said:

 

And your whole post is supposed be about what? Because it doesn't make any sense to just say that it's the fault of Greece, you didn't reinvent the wheel claiming this and notice that that i not once claimed that Greece is not at fault, i simply am showing that there's always the other side to the deals and that other side is Goldman sachs which has been playing with currencies in europe like crazy over the past decade.

Poland over the last year had and incredible swing in the strength of the Polish zloty going from a 1:2 ration per US dollar to even a 1:4 ratio. Over a single year where our economy is the steadiest and well paced in the region. And you know what? it turns out that Goldman Sachs was playing with our currency, betting that it will strengthen and then weaken. So first they buy out our currency in massive quantities and then just as so sell them.

Normally i wouldn't have a problem but these companies are not operating on a small scale but on macro scales. Because of their "games" the export sector is in shambles not to mention that potential investors are afraid to come in saying that Poland is not steady enough, but just how is a country like Poland supposed to fend of a company like Goldman Sachs?

And where the hell did that third paragraph of yours come from? Who said that it's normal? Where? You really went way to far with presumptions on this one my friend. The fact of the matter is that a country by itself does not have the ability to move such large amounts of money without being noticed ( we're talking about 15 b euro here). Goldman Sachs decided to offer their services and the greek gave in to stupidity, that i completely agree on. All i'm saying is look at Goldman Sachs as huge contributor to the current situation.

Could have Greece done something before it got out of control? Sure. Did they expect a crisis to hit them and hit them so hard......hah. They gambled. And they decided to do it at the worst time possible.

I don't know, maybe we're from different planets. Different countries at least lol.

The Swedish economy is actually smaller than Polands. But Goldman Sachs can't do shit to us. And taking a suspicous deal from them to hide the state of your rotten economy would just be something beyond the wildest dreams for any Swedish politician. It just can't happen. And if it did we certainly wouldn't blame any international bankers. It would be the biggest political scandal in Swedish history without any comparison.

I am almost thinking that it's no wonder that our economy is so stable when we have such different mentality compared to people so close as the other side of the Baltic sea.
You actually answered something in that post, your economy is too small to interest GS but the Polish and Greek aren't, with Greece especially since they began the whole thing coming up to the olympics that they were organizing at the time, a lot of money to be made.
And i have thought about the differences between southern europe and the scandinavian countries. I honestly have no idea how the systems that i see in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland(although it theoretically doesn't belong to the group) function as they do without a hitch. I personally would love Poland to be like them but i just don't see it happening with the mentality that permutes here.
And i'm not saying that the bankers are responsible, i'm saying they're co-responsible :P

Uh, Actually Sweeden has a larger Economy then Greece.


Sweeden is 22nd GDP

Greece is 28th

 

Poland is 21.   So it's not leagues bigger then Sweeden.

 

The difference is... the Sweedish economy is well run.