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Forums - Sony - Cohort Studios: Move is “so much more accurate” than Wiimote

scottie said:
Icyedge said:
scottie said:
Procrastinato said:

 

Hmm? They use EXACTLY the same method

 

Move - uses a camera (PSeye) to measure the apparent size of an object with known absolute size (the ball)

Wiimote - Uses a camera (the end of the Wiimote) to measure the apparent size of an object with known absolute size (the sensor bar)

 

It's confusing because Nintendo refer to an emittor as a sensor, but now you know - and knowing is half the battle.

 

And no, Wiimote without WM+ is more accurate than to the cm. Ever actually used one?

What are you trying to spin there? An infrared signal sensor and a camera is not the same thing. The Wii bar consist of infrared emitter position at each extremity. On the end of the Wii mote you have a light sensor that detect those infrared signal. Then the console use triangulation to know your position (1). Because of this triangulation process, moving fast with a Wii mote, will leave the device running on his accelerometers by themselves (not precise) (2). Also, the Wiimote needs to be pointed towards the screen (3). When its not pointed towards the screen, it doesnt sense the infrared signal, it becomes dependant of the accelerometers to estimate whats doing on (not precise). Best example of this would be the bowling game, half of your swing cannot use triangulation. Many things that will never happen with PSmove due to the differences in the technology behind it. Im pretty sure there is other differences also. Anyone knows about other factual differences?

 

(1)"The light emitted from each end of the Sensor Bar is focused onto the image sensor which sees the light as two bright dots separated by a distance "mi" on the image sensor. The second distance "m" between the two clusters of light emitters in the Sensor Bar is a fixed distance. From these two distances m and mi, the Wii CPU calculates the distance between the Wii Remote and the Sensor Bar using triangulation.[42]"

(2)"The Sensor Bar is required when the Wii Remote is controlling up-down, left-right motion of a cursor or reticle on the TV screen to point to menu options or objects such as enemies in first-person shooters. Because the Sensor Bar also allows the Wii Remote to calculate the distance between the Wii Remote and the Sensor Bar,[44] the Wii Remote can also control slow forward-backward motion of an object in a 3-dimensional game.[45] Rapid forward-backward motion, such as punching in a boxing game, is controlled by the acceleration sensors. Using these acceleration sensors (acting as tilt sensors), the Wii Remote can also control rotation of a cursor or other objects.[46]

(3)"It is not necessary to point directly at the Sensor Bar, but pointing significantly away from the bar will disrupt position-sensing ability due to the limited viewing angle of the Wii Remote."

 

I spin nothing but knowledge of the infinite majesty that is physics - infared and light are both electromagnetic fields oscillating at right angles to each other. An infared sensor is just a camera sensitive to a different frequency.

 

The Wiimote uses an electromagnetic wave detector to determine the apparent size of an object based on its electromagnetic emissions, and uses this and knowledge of the actual size of the object to determine distance

Move uses an electromagnetic wave detector to determine the apparent size of an object based on its electromagnetic emissions, and uses this and knowledge of the actual size of the object to determine distance

 

As it says in what you posted "the Sensor Bar also allows the Wii Remote to calculate the distance between the Wii Remote and the Sensor Bar,"

 

Look, I'm not trying to troll or anything, it is exactly the same method, trust me.

 

The fact both technic uses light to evaluate the position of an object doesnt mean they do it the same way nor that they sense the same type of light either. They are both very different tech even if we want the same result. It doesnt seem like you read my post at all. I didnt insinuate you were trolling, but if you feel you need to justify yourself...



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Icyedge said:
scottie said:
Icyedge said:
scottie said:
Procrastinato said:

 

What are you trying to spin there? An infrared signal sensor and a camera is not the same thing. The Wii bar consist of infrared emitter position at each extremity. On the end of the Wii mote you have a light sensor that detect those infrared signal. Then the console use triangulation to know your position (1). Because of this triangulation process, moving fast with a Wii mote, will leave the device running on his accelerometers by themselves (not precise) (2). Also, the Wiimote needs to be pointed towards the screen (3). When its not pointed towards the screen, it doesnt sense the infrared signal, it becomes dependant of the accelerometers to estimate whats doing on (not precise). Best example of this would be the bowling game, half of your swing cannot use triangulation. Many things that will never happen with PSmove due to the differences in the technology behind it. Im pretty sure there is other differences also. Anyone knows about other factual differences?

 

(1)"The light emitted from each end of the Sensor Bar is focused onto the image sensor which sees the light as two bright dots separated by a distance "mi" on the image sensor. The second distance "m" between the two clusters of light emitters in the Sensor Bar is a fixed distance. From these two distances m and mi, the Wii CPU calculates the distance between the Wii Remote and the Sensor Bar using triangulation.[42]"

(2)"The Sensor Bar is required when the Wii Remote is controlling up-down, left-right motion of a cursor or reticle on the TV screen to point to menu options or objects such as enemies in first-person shooters. Because the Sensor Bar also allows the Wii Remote to calculate the distance between the Wii Remote and the Sensor Bar,[44] the Wii Remote can also control slow forward-backward motion of an object in a 3-dimensional game.[45] Rapid forward-backward motion, such as punching in a boxing game, is controlled by the acceleration sensors. Using these acceleration sensors (acting as tilt sensors), the Wii Remote can also control rotation of a cursor or other objects.[46]

(3)"It is not necessary to point directly at the Sensor Bar, but pointing significantly away from the bar will disrupt position-sensing ability due to the limited viewing angle of the Wii Remote."

 

I spin nothing but knowledge of the infinite majesty that is physics - infared and light are both electromagnetic fields oscillating at right angles to each other. An infared sensor is just a camera sensitive to a different frequency.

 

The Wiimote uses an electromagnetic wave detector to determine the apparent size of an object based on its electromagnetic emissions, and uses this and knowledge of the actual size of the object to determine distance

Move uses an electromagnetic wave detector to determine the apparent size of an object based on its electromagnetic emissions, and uses this and knowledge of the actual size of the object to determine distance

 

As it says in what you posted "the Sensor Bar also allows the Wii Remote to calculate the distance between the Wii Remote and the Sensor Bar,"

 

Look, I'm not trying to troll or anything, it is exactly the same method, trust me.

 

The fact both technic uses light to evaluate the position of an object doesnt mean they do it the same way nor that they sense the same type of light either. They are both very different tech even if we want the same result. It doesnt seem like you read my post at all. I didnt insinuate you were trolling, but if you feel you need to justify yourself...

 

but the ONLY difference is that one uses higher wavelength EM radiation. And in one case you hold the emittor, in the other you hold the receiver, but arguing that this makes a difference seems a bit pointless. I read your post, and am still unsure what way you think they differ.



S.T.A.G.E. said:
Paul said:
This is terrible news. The wii is losing it's near monopoly on the rail-shooter market. The move will corner the shovelware market next and the wii will have nothing left but great first party titles.

Not exactly true. Sony has quality control on first party watch over their games since they cannot watch all the companies. Nintendo doesn't have this perk. Sony has more things than just videogames to worry about. Sony will most likely have higher quality third party titles than Nintendo. There is a really high chance with Sony and third party companies relationship compared to them and Nintendo. Being that you can do more with the Move it gives third parties more incentive to create a wider variety of quality titles. 


Judging by most 3rd parties' attitudes towards motion this gen i wouldn't be surprised if they dumped their shovelware that cost very little to make and a ton of "party" games on the PS3 when the move is released. Maybe we should wait and see which games are announced before deciding the quality of "move" games?



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peachbuggy said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Paul said:
This is terrible news. The wii is losing it's near monopoly on the rail-shooter market. The move will corner the shovelware market next and the wii will have nothing left but great first party titles.

Not exactly true. Sony has quality control on first party watch over their games since they cannot watch all the companies. Nintendo doesn't have this perk. Sony has more things than just videogames to worry about. Sony will most likely have higher quality third party titles than Nintendo. There is a really high chance with Sony and third party companies relationship compared to them and Nintendo. Being that you can do more with the Move it gives third parties more incentive to create a wider variety of quality titles. 


Judging by most 3rd parties' attitudes towards motion this gen i wouldn't be surprised if they dumped their shovelware that cost very little to make and a ton of "party" games on the PS3 when the move is released. Maybe we should wait and see which games are announced before deciding the quality of "move" games?

Ever  thought that some are biased to Nintendo and think the other peripherals were worth working with? Remember when Cliffy B said he wouldn't make a game for the Wii and he and Molyneux hinted at working with Natal? Sony has their favorites as well. There is a lot of bias to go around dude.  



Icyedge said:
scottie said:
Icyedge said:
scottie said:
Procrastinato said:

 

Hmm? They use EXACTLY the same method

 

Move - uses a camera (PSeye) to measure the apparent size of an object with known absolute size (the ball)

Wiimote - Uses a camera (the end of the Wiimote) to measure the apparent size of an object with known absolute size (the sensor bar)

 

It's confusing because Nintendo refer to an emittor as a sensor, but now you know - and knowing is half the battle.

 

And no, Wiimote without WM+ is more accurate than to the cm. Ever actually used one?

What are you trying to spin there? An infrared signal sensor and a camera is not the same thing. The Wii bar consist of infrared emitter position at each extremity. On the end of the Wii mote you have a light sensor that detect those infrared signal. Then the console use triangulation to know your position (1). Because of this triangulation process, moving fast with a Wii mote, will leave the device running on his accelerometers by themselves (not precise) (2). Also, the Wiimote needs to be pointed towards the screen (3). When its not pointed towards the screen, it doesnt sense the infrared signal, it becomes dependant of the accelerometers to estimate whats doing on (not precise). Best example of this would be the bowling game, half of your swing cannot use triangulation. Many things that will never happen with PSmove due to the differences in the technology behind it. Im pretty sure there is other differences also. Anyone knows about other factual differences?

 

(1)"The light emitted from each end of the Sensor Bar is focused onto the image sensor which sees the light as two bright dots separated by a distance "mi" on the image sensor. The second distance "m" between the two clusters of light emitters in the Sensor Bar is a fixed distance. From these two distances m and mi, the Wii CPU calculates the distance between the Wii Remote and the Sensor Bar using triangulation.[42]"

(2)"The Sensor Bar is required when the Wii Remote is controlling up-down, left-right motion of a cursor or reticle on the TV screen to point to menu options or objects such as enemies in first-person shooters. Because the Sensor Bar also allows the Wii Remote to calculate the distance between the Wii Remote and the Sensor Bar,[44] the Wii Remote can also control slow forward-backward motion of an object in a 3-dimensional game.[45] Rapid forward-backward motion, such as punching in a boxing game, is controlled by the acceleration sensors. Using these acceleration sensors (acting as tilt sensors), the Wii Remote can also control rotation of a cursor or other objects.[46]

(3)"It is not necessary to point directly at the Sensor Bar, but pointing significantly away from the bar will disrupt position-sensing ability due to the limited viewing angle of the Wii Remote."

 

I spin nothing but knowledge of the infinite majesty that is physics - infared and light are both electromagnetic fields oscillating at right angles to each other. An infared sensor is just a camera sensitive to a different frequency.

 

The Wiimote uses an electromagnetic wave detector to determine the apparent size of an object based on its electromagnetic emissions, and uses this and knowledge of the actual size of the object to determine distance

Move uses an electromagnetic wave detector to determine the apparent size of an object based on its electromagnetic emissions, and uses this and knowledge of the actual size of the object to determine distance

 

As it says in what you posted "the Sensor Bar also allows the Wii Remote to calculate the distance between the Wii Remote and the Sensor Bar,"

 

Look, I'm not trying to troll or anything, it is exactly the same method, trust me.

 

The fact both technic uses light to evaluate the position of an object doesnt mean they do it the same way nor that they sense the same type of light either. They are both very different tech even if we want the same result. It doesnt seem like you read my post at all. I didnt insinuate you were trolling, but if you feel you need to justify yourself...

Heh both techs are different, but thats mostly because the PS Eye was never meant to just sense IR light.  But while we're bringing up the pros and cons, yes the Wii remote needs to be pointed at the screen from time to time, most games automatically recenter it when you start pointing it at the TV, since there are very few IR lights in a house it usually doesn't become a problem unless too much sunlight is coming in.

Move is reversing things putting the camera on the TV end, one issue is the way it senses from what I've read is the color of the lightball, it detects colors in its view and changes the light on the ball to be a color that isn't in the room, which would be fine but color is much more prevalent than IR light, my room is personally like a rainbow cause I've got colorful crap everywhere.  Other issue being the light ball is only one point of reference, much like their face tracking, it bases it all off size in the 2D image to judge if the object is getting closer or backing away, if you've used this tech or seen it used, its not the most accurate, it is however helped out with the use of the gyros in the move controller.

Honestly there are advantages and disadvantages to both systems, making the types of games you can make for it very different, like I REALLY don't want to play a lightgun/TPS/FPS game on the Move since the movement to point at various points of the screen is more than just a flick of the wrist, I will probably play Socom just because but I don't see it stacking up to the CoD4 Wii controls.  On the other hand it is very likely sword fighting games will be much better on Move, I've already seen what Wii can do with WSR, which is very good (but has yet to be really untilized in a full game) but the sword fighting game on Move looks like it can do that plus not have the issue where you don't point the Wii remote at the screen after so long it becomes a little off, so that'll be nice.



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

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M.U.G.E.N said:
pacman91 said:
M.U.G.E.N said:
bmmb1 said:
M.U.G.E.N said:
famousringo said:
M.U.G.E.N said:
It's kinda obvious tho, Move is Definitely more responsive than the wii even with the motion plus...

Simple example: The table tennis game on the Move. the wii has not been able to do what it can do cuz it's mainly precoded commands used in many wii games (top spin, I can't wait to use it lol)

Either way at E3 we will see how Move and Natal will shine :) can't wait

If you're so eager to play with spin, you could just buy yourself Wii Sports Resort and Grand Slam Tennis right now.

Does those games mimic your wrist movements or are based or precoded movements? I would think it's the latter

Haven't played Grand Slam Tennis, but having played Wii Sports Resort of course, of course the Wii Motion Plus mimics wrist movements accurately whenever it is needed. A very visual example is actually the frisbee beach game. Coming to conclusions when you don't really know the subject matter does not exactly enhance your credibility in this and Wii related threads where you like to make your appearance for whatever reason.

I have played wsr (only for a lil time tho) but I was pretty certain it didn't mimic my wrist movements accurately, sorry. Same with RS2. Freedom of motion IS limited in the Wii.

I don't get this the wii can do everything the move can do claims :S have you guys not seen the tech demos of late? Wii can't do many things to the extent the Move can do, check out the official move thread for the vids if you haven't seen them yet, will help 'your' credibility as well ;)

and for the info, this is the Sony section, talking about the Move's accuracy. I have played the wii and have been following the Move. I would like it if you don't question 'my' reasons. I have a PS3 and I'm exicted for it. Why 'your' spending time here is not clear tho and netiher do I care, so make your 'appearence" anywhere you like, it IS the intetwebz. Just try to stick to the discussion and not underhanded witty remarks, cuz that can go both ways

Dude, the title of this article compares the wiimote and move from the perspective of the developer. How are these comments not on topic?

Is the conversation getting a little to heated for you?

He asked me why I was talking in this topic and that was my response. Might wanna read the whole thing before acting like a smartass...it's an article on the ps3 section and I am an owner of a ps3. Hence why I made an 'appearence' in this thread. Hence I asked the rhetorical question to show how silly his question was. Try to read between the lines and understand the context. So 'dude' since your comment contributed to this thread with absolutely nothing, might wanna try to do that next time. Cuz random comments such as this is useless, or is the whole topic getting too much/heated for you? please don't waste my time anymore on this. I have played the wii and wii+. They did not mimic my movemtns as accurately as ppl claim. Simple as that. I don't care if ppl are hired PR from Nintendo even that is my experience so far. Sheesh some ppl act like some companies pay their bills or something around here.

 

I love how you speak when you have the highest prooff of the move's inaccuracy in your signature.

let me explain.

when you move your left fist to smash someone's face repeatedly... you'd expect your caracter's left fist to do the same.... not use his right fist.

The wii mote, for all the hate you have for it, does recognize left from right...

Facts:

 

 



OoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO

Hephaestos said:
M.U.G.E.N said:
pacman91 said:
M.U.G.E.N said:
bmmb1 said:
M.U.G.E.N said:
famousringo said:
M.U.G.E.N said:
It's kinda obvious tho, Move is Definitely more responsive than the wii even with the motion plus...

Simple example: The table tennis game on the Move. the wii has not been able to do what it can do cuz it's mainly precoded commands used in many wii games (top spin, I can't wait to use it lol)

Either way at E3 we will see how Move and Natal will shine :) can't wait

If you're so eager to play with spin, you could just buy yourself Wii Sports Resort and Grand Slam Tennis right now.

Does those games mimic your wrist movements or are based or precoded movements? I would think it's the latter

Haven't played Grand Slam Tennis, but having played Wii Sports Resort of course, of course the Wii Motion Plus mimics wrist movements accurately whenever it is needed. A very visual example is actually the frisbee beach game. Coming to conclusions when you don't really know the subject matter does not exactly enhance your credibility in this and Wii related threads where you like to make your appearance for whatever reason.

I have played wsr (only for a lil time tho) but I was pretty certain it didn't mimic my wrist movements accurately, sorry. Same with RS2. Freedom of motion IS limited in the Wii.

I don't get this the wii can do everything the move can do claims :S have you guys not seen the tech demos of late? Wii can't do many things to the extent the Move can do, check out the official move thread for the vids if you haven't seen them yet, will help 'your' credibility as well ;)

and for the info, this is the Sony section, talking about the Move's accuracy. I have played the wii and have been following the Move. I would like it if you don't question 'my' reasons. I have a PS3 and I'm exicted for it. Why 'your' spending time here is not clear tho and netiher do I care, so make your 'appearence" anywhere you like, it IS the intetwebz. Just try to stick to the discussion and not underhanded witty remarks, cuz that can go both ways

Dude, the title of this article compares the wiimote and move from the perspective of the developer. How are these comments not on topic?

Is the conversation getting a little to heated for you?

He asked me why I was talking in this topic and that was my response. Might wanna read the whole thing before acting like a smartass...it's an article on the ps3 section and I am an owner of a ps3. Hence why I made an 'appearence' in this thread. Hence I asked the rhetorical question to show how silly his question was. Try to read between the lines and understand the context. So 'dude' since your comment contributed to this thread with absolutely nothing, might wanna try to do that next time. Cuz random comments such as this is useless, or is the whole topic getting too much/heated for you? please don't waste my time anymore on this. I have played the wii and wii+. They did not mimic my movemtns as accurately as ppl claim. Simple as that. I don't care if ppl are hired PR from Nintendo even that is my experience so far. Sheesh some ppl act like some companies pay their bills or something around here.

 

I love how you speak when you have the highest prooff of the move's inaccuracy in your signature.

let me explain.

when you move your left fist to smash someone's face repeatedly... you'd expect your caracter's left fist to do the same.... not use his right fist.

The wii mote, for all the hate you have for it, does recognize left from right...

Facts:

 

 

Might wanna read up on the game before pointing fingers. Those 'cheap moves' or w/e they will be called in the final build, are gesture based mainly ;)

 

and btw wii does not have a boxing game that can immitate this type of movement. I have tried the sports resort or w/e it's caleld game and also punch out, so nope it can't track it like that :) and again wait until the final build comes (this is 20% pre alpha version of the games) then we can see how much Move compares to the wii



In-Kat-We-Trust Brigade!

"This world is Merciless, and it's also very beautiful"

For All News/Info related to the PlayStation Vita, Come and join us in the Official PSV Thread!

M.U.G.E.N said:
Hephaestos said:
 

 

I love how you speak when you have the highest prooff of the move's inaccuracy in your signature.

let me explain.

when you move your left fist to smash someone's face repeatedly... you'd expect your caracter's left fist to do the same.... not use his right fist.

The wii mote, for all the hate you have for it, does recognize left from right...

Facts:

 

 

Might wanna read up on the game before pointing fingers. Those 'cheap moves' or w/e they will be called in the final build, are gesture based mainly ;)

Reading what he said and then your response... your response makes no sense... did you read what he wrote? o_O (serious question)

As a side note, remember commercials are doctored, hell you can't have a TV screen be recorded by a camera cause the picture will look like crap and thats no way to promote your titles, all the clips you see in the commercials are added after recording so if there are any inconsistancies it's most likely because the people making the ads screwed up and the fact that the people "playing" are actors there's likely nothing even on that TV.



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

MaxwellGT2000 said:
M.U.G.E.N said:
Hephaestos said:
 

 

I love how you speak when you have the highest prooff of the move's inaccuracy in your signature.

let me explain.

when you move your left fist to smash someone's face repeatedly... you'd expect your caracter's left fist to do the same.... not use his right fist.

The wii mote, for all the hate you have for it, does recognize left from right...

Facts:

 

 

Might wanna read up on the game before pointing fingers. Those 'cheap moves' or w/e they will be called in the final build, are gesture based mainly ;)

Reading what he said and then your response... your response makes no sense... did you read what he wrote? o_O (serious question)

As a side note, remember commercials are doctored, hell you can't have a TV screen be recorded by a camera cause the picture will look like crap and thats no way to promote your titles, all the clips you see in the commercials are added after recording so if there are any inconsistancies it's most likely because the people making the ads screwed up and the fact that the people "playing" are actors there's likely nothing even on that TV.

Yes I did, maybe I should be a bit clearer on what I said. THis game is usually is in first person yes? When they go into these cheap shots or w/e they are called, they do this close up of it. Reason: simple, imagine how that specefic action looks in first person? I don't think it will look too good ( I do agree they could have gone with that as well so I take it's a design choice on the developers part)..so hence the change in camera angle, I believe this is why there is a change of sides. If one has seen the videos when your doing your normal moves you can see Move tracks it pretty nicely ;) so there you go, ab it more detailed



In-Kat-We-Trust Brigade!

"This world is Merciless, and it's also very beautiful"

For All News/Info related to the PlayStation Vita, Come and join us in the Official PSV Thread!

M.U.G.E.N said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
M.U.G.E.N said:
Hephaestos said:
 

 

I love how you speak when you have the highest prooff of the move's inaccuracy in your signature.

let me explain.

when you move your left fist to smash someone's face repeatedly... you'd expect your caracter's left fist to do the same.... not use his right fist.

The wii mote, for all the hate you have for it, does recognize left from right...

Facts:

 

 

Might wanna read up on the game before pointing fingers. Those 'cheap moves' or w/e they will be called in the final build, are gesture based mainly ;)

Reading what he said and then your response... your response makes no sense... did you read what he wrote? o_O (serious question)

As a side note, remember commercials are doctored, hell you can't have a TV screen be recorded by a camera cause the picture will look like crap and thats no way to promote your titles, all the clips you see in the commercials are added after recording so if there are any inconsistancies it's most likely because the people making the ads screwed up and the fact that the people "playing" are actors there's likely nothing even on that TV.

Yes I did, maybe I should be a bit clearer on what I said. THis game is usually is in first person yes? When they go into these cheap shots or w/e they are called, they do this close up of it. Reason: simple, imagine how that specefic action looks in first person? I don't think it will look too good ( I do agree they could have gone with that as well so I take it's a design choice on the developers part)..so hence the change in camera angle, I believe this is why there is a change of sides. If one has seen the videos when your doing your normal moves you can see Move tracks it pretty nicely ;) so there you go, ab it more detailed

More likely the reason is this is a pretty crappy commercial from a standpoint of trying to be realistic, but its a comedic commercial so its all cool, but if you want to split hairs...

  • movements aren't 1:1 with the guys arm
  • he's using his left hand character is using right
  • the Eye is not even set up right
  • there are no cords from the PS3 leading to the TV
  • No lights are on on the PS3 or Eye IE no power
  • And he is using two moves not the move and sub controller

So yeah... crappy doctored ad... move on



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000