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Forums - Microsoft - DF: Alan Wake: the sub-HD debate

its not like u would notice unless u had one running and sub hd and one on hd next to eachother. its like ffxiii u didnt notice if the ps3 one was better untiln u where looking at them side by side...then u noticed :P



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WereKitten said:
selnor said:
Really. Professionals disagree with you. I know exactly how MLAA works because I wanted to know what it was more than 6 months ago. And was shown an article by A Reshetov from Intel Labs. The following is The purpose and the how in a nutshell:MLAA is designed to reduce aliasing artifacts in displayed images without causing any additional rays, it consists of 3 main steps.1. Find discontinuities between pixels in a given image.2.  Identify predetermined patterns. 3. Blend colours in the neighbourhood of those patterns. And be realistic. You know very well no console game till Alan Wake has done FS 4xMSAA. And no spec is biting back. All this forum has done is look for ways to disprove why AW wont beat U2 or GOW3. The review embargo lifts soon, so we will all see if I or you guys are correct.

Sigh. You just quoted the paper I linked to.

I obviously read it and understood what it said and even stated in my post "Blending pixel colour data at pixel scale is what all AA techniques are about". The point is what do you blend and how much detail you preserve.

On the other hand, you mixed up morphological with morphing and you kept repeating that MLAA blurs textures, whereas the whole point of being, well, morphological is to blend edges but not the fillings.

Plus, once again: you claim that no console game before AW has done 4xMSAA. There's many sources on the contrary, I even linked to a synopsis of the results from B3D. Either show evidence that every one of those 30+ games is not doing 4xMSAA or you're just talking emptily.

And this is not about AW's overall visual quality nor even less about its overall game qualities, stop trying to turn this into "ps3 versus 360". It's me against pseudo tech talk.

Come on man. They have FNR4 as listed for 4xAA. But they refrain from saying anything aout FNR4 only having 4xMSAA on characters. Or Gears 2 just syays 2xMSAA. Gears 2 only has 2xMSAA on effects and transparencies according to Epic.

Again I say Full Screen for AW has never been done. Foliage, shadows, geometry, textures etc etc. Remedy have confirmed everything has 4xMSAA Full screen. No other game does full screen MSAA. I know MLAA has been done, but can blurr textures and is far easier for a system to handle.



MLAA doesn't blur texture at all.

GOW3 press shot (oversampling (as usual)):
http://i46.tinypic.com/2vb293t.jpg

GOW3 framebuffer grab (Ingame MLAA):
http://openpandora.info/hosting/upload/files/2010-03/f78111.png

There's no texture blurring in Santa Monica's implementation, the only difference is obviously the shader sampling between an heavy press oversampling and MLAA.

That's way beyond any other technique on other console game (and in 720p,(and up to 60fps..))



@Selnor

Actually, Remedy stated that the buffers differ in resolution and AA. Thus, even if the geometry is antialiased 4xMSAA that isn't a FSAA i.e. they aren't applying an AA algorithm to the final framebuffer, they are applying it in different amounts before composition. Please link me to the official confirmation of "everything has 4xMSAA full screen" you speak of.

As for the rest, you keep repeating yourself at this point but still aren't putting substance behind what you say.
a) Please find me a single authoritative source claiming that AW is the first 4xAA console game, or alternatively show proof than none of the 30+ listed games has 4xAA.
b) show me evidence that all MLAA techniques "blur textures" and are "far easier for a system to handle" (afaik actually one of its problems has been the computational cost, which you can overcome by parallelization). My counterexample is God of War III: look for close shot of Kratos and you'll see pixel-crisp textures and per-pixel lighting, while edges are treated by the MLAA.



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

So, only HUD runs at native 720p ?

From Quaz51 :

"i agree. all the others buffers (Motion vector, ambiant lighting, Z-pass, particle buffer, deffered buffer ...) surely have the same resolution (540p) or less
probably just the HUD is 720p and maybe some filter like noise filter (but apparently AW don't have noise filter like SH)"

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1423024&postcount=199





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The atmospheric buffer is very low definition, i would say something like 480x270, half mainres, or even 320x240. That's the first thing i noticed on the screenshots a while ago.

Usually the hud is "rendered" (that's very cheap rendering) in target resolution on subhd games. Nothing new here.



coolbeans said:
Sh1nn said:

So, only HUD runs at native 720p ?

From Quaz51 :

"i agree. all the others buffers (Motion vector, ambiant lighting, Z-pass, particle buffer, deffered buffer ...) surely have the same resolution (540p) or less
probably just the HUD is 720p and maybe some filter like noise filter (but apparently AW don't have noise filter like SH)"

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1423024&postcount=199



Hmmm...I remember seeing Remedy mention that everything other than the "opaque geometry *something* "  (lol don't remember exactly) ran at native 720p while geometry was 540p.  They mentioned a bunch of things about buffers but I don't know anything about that to go into detail.

As I said before, it makes zero sense to render the geometry at a lower resolution than the effects.  Every single other engine does it the other way around, if they use buffers of varying sizes.

And Remedy is clearly trying to hide the fact that it's game runs in low resolution by not addressing it directly, but writing a bunch of technical mumbojumbo that applies to every single damn engine out there, and throwing out random "facts" about the engine that no one cares about.  Wow, 50+ buffers that take up 80MB of space, the equivalent of ~20 1280x720 buffers.  Well damn, I guess 960x540 is confirmed, because how do you fit 50 1280x720 buffers in the space 20 1280x720 buffers take?



that's getting hilarious now :

http://forum.alanwake.com/showpost.php?p=71145&postcount=1520

"I don't want to disturb people on their vacation for this matter"

LOL



noodson said:
that's getting hilarious now :

http://forum.alanwake.com/showpost.php?p=71145&postcount=1520

"I don't want to disturb people on their vacation for this matter"

LOL

A sad day in gaming where knowing the native resolution of a game is more important than having fun playing the game.  Where people are so uptight about something that proabably will not make a difference in a person enjoying the game.

 

From the latest pixel counters, it appears that AW might be using dynamic resolution depending on the scene.