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Forums - Gaming - are jrpgs dying?

The JRPG genre is much more diverse than a lot of people give it credit for. I don't think Final Fantasy is a good representation of how JRPGs as a general genre have been going. The series which leads it is Dragon Quest, if Final Fantasy does something viable for all games in the genre, some will follow, if Dragon Quest does it, everyone follows.

The Dragon Quest games, I have heard people describe as being 99.9% the same as one and other; though this usually comes from people who have not played them before, or have only played one of them. The games look similar in art style, and have similar monsters, and battle systems; but overall, the games are very different:

DQ1 - 1 player
DQ2 - 1 player with two allies
DQ3 - 4 Party based, and a class system (while FF1 came out a few weeks earlier, DQ3's direction was probably known before development began on FF1)
DQ4 - Chapters which follow different stories of different characters which all link up to each other.
DQ5 - The game follows the life of a character from childhood to an older age, you can select a wife, have children which fight with you.



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Faxanadu said:
jarrod said:
Faxanadu said:
On DS not, on Wii they just get reborn and I dont care for the rest.

Unfortuantely, games like Scret of Mana or the Soulblazer-Triology arent around anymore....

The death of epic single player Japanese Action RPGs in the late 90s is one of saddest events in gaming imo.  These days it's pretty much just Zelda, Ys and awful crap like Kingdom Hearts keeping it going. ;_;

I actually just played Ys for the first time on the DS and am surprised how much fun it is. I heard of it back then, but I guess it was never released in Europe - just like 95% of all JRPGs back then.

Zelda I would count as dead as well, as the shift to 3D has totally changed gameplay and hence its not the same anymore.

Just like with Mario, for a while Zelda had 2 versions going.  The 3D 'console' version and the 2D 'handheld' version.  However, with the DS, they for some reason decided to forgo that tradition and switch the handheld games to the 3D style as well, though still resembling the graphical style of the previous 'older' games (like Link to the Past, Link's Awakening and Minish Cap).  It all has to do with the style, which is trying to mimick Wind Waker.  And it works, as the games are selling millions.

Jumpin said:
The JRPG genre is much more diverse than a lot of people give it credit for. I don't think Final Fantasy is a good representation of how JRPGs as a general genre have been going. The series which leads it is Dragon Quest, if Final Fantasy does something viable for all games in the genre, some will follow, if Dragon Quest does it, everyone follows.

The Dragon Quest games, I have heard people describe as being 99.9% the same as one and other; though this usually comes from people who have not played them before, or have only played one of them. The games look similar in art style, and have similar monsters, and battle systems; but overall, the games are very different:

DQ1 - 1 player
DQ2 - 1 player with two allies
DQ3 - 4 Party based, and a class system (while FF1 came out a few weeks earlier, DQ3's direction was probably known before development began on FF1)
DQ4 - Chapters which follow different stories of different characters which all link up to each other.
DQ5 - The game follows the life of a character from childhood to an older age, you can select a wife, have children which fight with you.

Examples based on Dragon Quest fall on deaf ears.  Mostly because hardly anone has played the series.  Or because the only major point of reference beyond the series is Final Fantasy.  But yes, I agree.  While the series is often pegged for being 'more of the same' by western players and even moreso by reviewers, it is actually the complete opposite.  It is actually one of the most unique JRPG series out there and paved the way for many of the staples of the genre.  People just consider concepts or the games themselves 'repetative' or 'formulaic' because for many things, Dragon Quest invented those formulas and systems.  And in many games, it also broke away or even shattered those same conventions that later JRPGs went on to emulate.

Its just that most people outside of Japan have only seen the very surface of the series and made their judgement based on that.  I know, I did that too.  Before actually playing the games....



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

Faxanadu said:
jarrod said:
Faxanadu said:
jarrod said:
Faxanadu said:
jarrod said:
Faxanadu said:
On DS not, on Wii they just get reborn and I dont care for the rest.

Unfortuantely, games like Scret of Mana or the Soulblazer-Triology arent around anymore....

The death of epic single player Japanese Action RPGs in the late 90s is one of saddest events in gaming imo.  These days it's pretty much just Zelda, Ys and awful crap like Kingdom Hearts keeping it going. ;_;

I actually just played Ys for the first time on the DS and am surprised how much fun it is. I heard of it back then, but I guess it was never released in Europe - just like 95% of all JRPGs back then.

Zelda I would count as dead as well, as the shift to 3D has totally changed gameplay and hence its not the same anymore.

OMFG, that's like the worst version of Ys though! :X

Get to your Wii and download Ys Books I & II on the Virtual Console immediately! Unless you don't have it on VC in Europe, in which case I'll weep for you. ;_;

Is it different/better? How and why?

And yes, I think it is on VC.

Looks, sounds, plays better.  The TG16 version is generally considered the best of all the Ys I&II versions (at least besides the Eternal remakes). I have the DS version too (it's based off Eternal btw), and while it's not as bad as some say, it's still pretty janky and low budget imo.  I'd definitely recommend doing the VC versions first though.

Virtual Console's been my saving grace this gen though, with so many great ARPGs to replay though (Zelda 1-3, Ys I&II, Neutopia 1-2, LandStalker, Beyond Oasis, Monster World 1-4, Secret of Mana).  Man, I miss 16-bit.

OK, thanks for the info.

I guess I need to check the highlighted games out. And yes, VC has done me good as well so far.

I am still amazed that Secret of Mana is still as glorious today as it was back then - couldnt put it down.

Also, zelda 2 was fun until I screwed up and used some keys from Castle 3 in Castle 4 - am scared now to go back and find that missing key in castle 4 - stupid open world stuff....

Quick rundown if you're curious...

Neutopia / Neutopia II are slavishly faithful Zelda 1 clones for TG16.  Awesome games, and if you liked Z1, you'll LOVE these.

Beyond Oasis is a gorgeous looking overhead ARPG for Genesis.  It was made by Ancient (of Streets of Rage fame) and incorporates SF2 style special moves and combos, as well as a pretty complex elemental puzzle system.  Good puzzles, great combat, really challenging, but also kinda short.

The Monster World games are bit more confusing, and there's repeat games on the VC too, but they're (usually) sidescrolling Action RPGs.  I'll try to sort it out for you...

  • Wonder Boy in Monster Land (SMS) conversion of an arcade game, time limits, really hard, really linear, little in terms of RPG elements, no puzzles.  I wouldn't really recommend it.
  • Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap (SMS) Amazing game, pretty ahead of it's time, best visuals on SMS, probably my favorite game in the series.  Highly recommended.
  • Dragon's Curse (TG16) Port of WBIII, with a different main character and new soundtrack.  This was released back when TG16 emulation on VC was filtered too, so beware if you're a purist like me. Honestly, the SMS version is better all around, get that one.
  • Wonder Boy III: Monster Lair (Gen) Confusing title I know, but this is actually not a Monster World game, it's a conversion of a side scrolling arcade shooter, more like the original Wonder Boy game.
  • Monster's Lair (TGCD) port of the other WB3, again with swapped characters and music.  I'd skip both versions honestly, unless you're into shooter/platformer hybrids.
  • Wonder Boy in Monster World (Gen) 3rd game in the series, great visuals, huge world to explore, tons of secrets.  It's pretty difficult and the last boss is borderline impossible.  I've actually never beaten it without cheating. :(
  • The Dynastic Hero (TGCD) Port of the 3rd game, and you know the story, new main hero, new soundtrack.  I may actually recommend this version over the original though, as it's last boss is actually manageable, it has nice cutscenes added, it's soundtrack is better for once and the rest of the game is pretty much equal.
  • Monster Wolrd IV (Gen) Awesome final game in the series, main character's a girl (!), stunning graphics, but unfortunately only in Japanese, and I would it ever comes to the VC outside Japan. ;_;


Kenryoku_Maxis said:

Examples based on Dragon Quest fall on deaf ears.  Mostly because hardly anone has played the series.  Or because the only major point of reference beyond the series is Final Fantasy.  But yes, I agree.  While the series is often pegged for being 'more of the same' by western players and even moreso by reviewers, it is actually the complete opposite.  It is actually one of the most unique JRPG series out there and paved the way for many of the staples of the genre.  People just consider concepts or the games themselves 'repetative' or 'formulaic' because for many things, Dragon Quest invented those formulas and systems.  And in many games, it also broke away or even shattered those same conventions that later JRPGs went on to emulate.

Its just that most people outside of Japan have only seen the very surface of the series and made their judgement based on that.  I know, I did that too.  Before actually playing the games....

Hopefully DQIX changes that.  It really is like the anti-FFXIII, total emphasis on character building, co-op questing, non-linear exploration, LOOT, etc.  It's almost like a WRPG in Toriyama's clothes in some ways.



jarrod said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:

Examples based on Dragon Quest fall on deaf ears.  Mostly because hardly anone has played the series.  Or because the only major point of reference beyond the series is Final Fantasy.  But yes, I agree.  While the series is often pegged for being 'more of the same' by western players and even moreso by reviewers, it is actually the complete opposite.  It is actually one of the most unique JRPG series out there and paved the way for many of the staples of the genre.  People just consider concepts or the games themselves 'repetative' or 'formulaic' because for many things, Dragon Quest invented those formulas and systems.  And in many games, it also broke away or even shattered those same conventions that later JRPGs went on to emulate.

Its just that most people outside of Japan have only seen the very surface of the series and made their judgement based on that.  I know, I did that too.  Before actually playing the games....

Hopefully DQIX changes that.  It really is like the anti-FFXIII, total emphasis on character building, co-op questing, non-linear exploration, LOOT, etc.  It's almost like a WRPG in Toriyama's clothes in some ways.

Pretty much.  And that's why I've always said Dragon Quest has the potential to be one of the most successful, if not the most sucessful JRPGs in America.  If SquareEnix would ever advertise the games.  Because it really has tons of similarities to WRPGs and most of that 'WRPG fans' want in an RPG.  Its just also got most of the Anime styled character designs, emphasis on item collection and plot themes of a JRPG.  Pretty much the 'bridge' to connect both genres.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

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Jumpin said:
rocketpig said:
Jumpin said:
The top selling RPGs this generation are from Japan. The Dragon Quest series has hit new heights in the last few years in terms of sales.

Wha? The top selling console RPG list this generation is completely dominated by western developers. I'm pretty sure that's what the OP is talking about (hence his mention of FF and LO).

Dragon Quest 9 - 4.22 million sold

Dragon Quest 6 DS 1.26M

Dragon Quest 5 DS 1.33M

Dragon Quest 4 DS - 1.38M

Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker - 1.72M

Dragon Quest Rocket Slime - 420K

Now which Western RPG franchise has sold more than 10 million in the past few years? How many have exceeded 4.22 million? (and that's not even the top selling JRPG this gen).

 

EDIT: I don't mean for this post to read as conflictual as it may.

World of Warcraft, and did so in a much more impressive fashion.

The only way to see if the JRPGs are declining is to compare directly with the sales of last gen. JRPGs may not be dying, but they sure as hell look stagnant at best, even more terrible considering that the videogames market is much bigger than last gen.



shio said:
Jumpin said:
rocketpig said:
Jumpin said:
The top selling RPGs this generation are from Japan. The Dragon Quest series has hit new heights in the last few years in terms of sales.

Wha? The top selling console RPG list this generation is completely dominated by western developers. I'm pretty sure that's what the OP is talking about (hence his mention of FF and LO).

Dragon Quest 9 - 4.22 million sold

Dragon Quest 6 DS 1.26M

Dragon Quest 5 DS 1.33M

Dragon Quest 4 DS - 1.38M

Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker - 1.72M

Dragon Quest Rocket Slime - 420K

Now which Western RPG franchise has sold more than 10 million in the past few years? How many have exceeded 4.22 million? (and that's not even the top selling JRPG this gen).

 

EDIT: I don't mean for this post to read as conflictual as it may.

World of Warcraft, and did so in a much more impressive fashion.

The only way to see if the JRPGs are declining is to compare directly with the sales of last gen. JRPGs may not be dying, but they sure as hell look stagnant at best, even more terrible considering that the videogames market is much bigger than last gen.

How are the sales of WoW compared to Dragon Quest 'more impressive'?  WoW is one game compared to Dragon Quest which is a series that has consistently sold more and more in the multi MILLIONS every title in only ONE country.  I would say Dragon Quest is much more impressive, having been a 25 year series that has seen consistent and steady growth in the millions over EVERY major title (and nearly every spin-off and remake) while WoW is only one game.

If WoW can spawn a number of sequels, hold its popularity and grew in sales for over the years without being eclipsed by other MMO series, then I will say its had as big of an impact as Dragon Quest has.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

Kenryoku_Maxis said:
shio said:
Jumpin said:
rocketpig said:
Jumpin said:
The top selling RPGs this generation are from Japan. The Dragon Quest series has hit new heights in the last few years in terms of sales.

Wha? The top selling console RPG list this generation is completely dominated by western developers. I'm pretty sure that's what the OP is talking about (hence his mention of FF and LO).

Dragon Quest 9 - 4.22 million sold

Dragon Quest 6 DS 1.26M

Dragon Quest 5 DS 1.33M

Dragon Quest 4 DS - 1.38M

Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker - 1.72M

Dragon Quest Rocket Slime - 420K

Now which Western RPG franchise has sold more than 10 million in the past few years? How many have exceeded 4.22 million? (and that's not even the top selling JRPG this gen).

 

EDIT: I don't mean for this post to read as conflictual as it may.

World of Warcraft, and did so in a much more impressive fashion.

The only way to see if the JRPGs are declining is to compare directly with the sales of last gen. JRPGs may not be dying, but they sure as hell look stagnant at best, even more terrible considering that the videogames market is much bigger than last gen.

How are the sales of WoW compared to Dragon Quest 'more impressive'?  WoW is one game compared to Dragon Quest which is a series that has consistently sold more and more in the multi MILLIONS every title in only ONE country.  I would say Dragon Quest is much more impressive, having been a 25 year series that has seen consistent and steady growth in the millions over EVERY major title (and nearly every spin-off and remake) while WoW is only one game.

If WoW can spawn a number of sequels, hold its popularity and grew in sales for over the years without being eclipsed by other MMO series, then I will say its had as big of an impact as Dragon Quest has.

Eh, hasn't it already done that with its expansions?



weaveworld said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
shio said:
Jumpin said:
rocketpig said:
Jumpin said:
The top selling RPGs this generation are from Japan. The Dragon Quest series has hit new heights in the last few years in terms of sales.

Wha? The top selling console RPG list this generation is completely dominated by western developers. I'm pretty sure that's what the OP is talking about (hence his mention of FF and LO).

Dragon Quest 9 - 4.22 million sold

Dragon Quest 6 DS 1.26M

Dragon Quest 5 DS 1.33M

Dragon Quest 4 DS - 1.38M

Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker - 1.72M

Dragon Quest Rocket Slime - 420K

Now which Western RPG franchise has sold more than 10 million in the past few years? How many have exceeded 4.22 million? (and that's not even the top selling JRPG this gen).

 

EDIT: I don't mean for this post to read as conflictual as it may.

World of Warcraft, and did so in a much more impressive fashion.

The only way to see if the JRPGs are declining is to compare directly with the sales of last gen. JRPGs may not be dying, but they sure as hell look stagnant at best, even more terrible considering that the videogames market is much bigger than last gen.

How are the sales of WoW compared to Dragon Quest 'more impressive'?  WoW is one game compared to Dragon Quest which is a series that has consistently sold more and more in the multi MILLIONS every title in only ONE country.  I would say Dragon Quest is much more impressive, having been a 25 year series that has seen consistent and steady growth in the millions over EVERY major title (and nearly every spin-off and remake) while WoW is only one game.

If WoW can spawn a number of sequels, hold its popularity and grew in sales for over the years without being eclipsed by other MMO series, then I will say its had as big of an impact as Dragon Quest has.

Eh, hasn't it already done that with its expansions?

Its still the same game.  And it still hasn't been out near the same time as Dragon Quest or many of the other major RPG series to claim it has 'lasting power' in the industry.

Yes, it made a huge impact, there's no denying that.  Heck, it spawned countless clones of itself and was probably the biggest MMO yet.  But on the same token, Dragon Quest had the same effect for console RPGs when it was released.  Having a major impact and high sales is very different than having a lasting impact and sustained sales over the course of a series of games.  And WoW is neither a series nor hasn't been around for 15-20 years to be able to say that yet.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

jarrod said:
Faxanadu said:
jarrod said:
Faxanadu said:
jarrod said:
Faxanadu said:
jarrod said:
Faxanadu said:
On DS not, on Wii they just get reborn and I dont care for the rest.

Unfortuantely, games like Scret of Mana or the Soulblazer-Triology arent around anymore....

The death of epic single player Japanese Action RPGs in the late 90s is one of saddest events in gaming imo.  These days it's pretty much just Zelda, Ys and awful crap like Kingdom Hearts keeping it going. ;_;

I actually just played Ys for the first time on the DS and am surprised how much fun it is. I heard of it back then, but I guess it was never released in Europe - just like 95% of all JRPGs back then.

Zelda I would count as dead as well, as the shift to 3D has totally changed gameplay and hence its not the same anymore.

OMFG, that's like the worst version of Ys though! :X

Get to your Wii and download Ys Books I & II on the Virtual Console immediately! Unless you don't have it on VC in Europe, in which case I'll weep for you. ;_;

Is it different/better? How and why?

And yes, I think it is on VC.

Looks, sounds, plays better.  The TG16 version is generally considered the best of all the Ys I&II versions (at least besides the Eternal remakes). I have the DS version too (it's based off Eternal btw), and while it's not as bad as some say, it's still pretty janky and low budget imo.  I'd definitely recommend doing the VC versions first though.

Virtual Console's been my saving grace this gen though, with so many great ARPGs to replay though (Zelda 1-3, Ys I&II, Neutopia 1-2, LandStalker, Beyond Oasis, Monster World 1-4, Secret of Mana).  Man, I miss 16-bit.

OK, thanks for the info.

I guess I need to check the highlighted games out. And yes, VC has done me good as well so far.

I am still amazed that Secret of Mana is still as glorious today as it was back then - couldnt put it down.

Also, zelda 2 was fun until I screwed up and used some keys from Castle 3 in Castle 4 - am scared now to go back and find that missing key in castle 4 - stupid open world stuff....

Quick rundown if you're curious...

Neutopia / Neutopia II are slavishly faithful Zelda 1 clones for TG16.  Awesome games, and if you liked Z1, you'll LOVE these.

Beyond Oasis is a gorgeous looking overhead ARPG for Genesis.  It was made by Ancient (of Streets of Rage fame) and incorporates SF2 style special moves and combos, as well as a pretty complex elemental puzzle system.  Good puzzles, great combat, really challenging, but also kinda short.

The Monster World games are bit more confusing, and there's repeat games on the VC too, but they're (usually) sidescrolling Action RPGs.  I'll try to sort it out for you...

  • Wonder Boy in Monster Land (SMS) conversion of an arcade game, time limits, really hard, really linear, little in terms of RPG elements, no puzzles.  I wouldn't really recommend it.
  • Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap (SMS) Amazing game, pretty ahead of it's time, best visuals on SMS, probably my favorite game in the series.  Highly recommended.
  • Dragon's Curse (TG16) Port of WBIII, with a different main character and new soundtrack.  This was released back when TG16 emulation on VC was filtered too, so beware if you're a purist like me. Honestly, the SMS version is better all around, get that one.
  • Wonder Boy III: Monster Lair (Gen) Confusing title I know, but this is actually not a Monster World game, it's a conversion of a side scrolling arcade shooter, more like the original Wonder Boy game.
  • Monster's Lair (TGCD) port of the other WB3, again with swapped characters and music.  I'd skip both versions honestly, unless you're into shooter/platformer hybrids.
  • Wonder Boy in Monster World (Gen) 3rd game in the series, great visuals, huge world to explore, tons of secrets.  It's pretty difficult and the last boss is borderline impossible.  I've actually never beaten it without cheating. :(
  • The Dynastic Hero (TGCD) Port of the 3rd game, and you know the story, new main hero, new soundtrack.  I may actually recommend this version over the original though, as it's last boss is actually manageable, it has nice cutscenes added, it's soundtrack is better for once and the rest of the game is pretty much equal.
  • Monster Wolrd IV (Gen) Awesome final game in the series, main character's a girl (!), stunning graphics, but unfortunately only in Japanese, and I would it ever comes to the VC outside Japan. ;_;

Ah, you mean Wonderboy. That might be interesting, as I like Faxanadu, which is also a side scrolling adventure game, I guess.

 

The other three sound great - will probably check them out, thanks.



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