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Forums - Sony - Is the JRPG/FF run over?

SmoothCriminal on 13 March 2010
Riachu said:
SmoothCriminal said:
DragonLord said:
Huya said:
Have you played Kotor1 and Jade Empire then?

I've played Jade Empire.  It was alright.  I don't HATE WRPGs, they're just second rate to me.  I'll still take a WRPG over a shooter anytime, any day.  But I just grew up playing JRPGs--they're what made me a gamer.  A lot of the younger generations didn't have that opportunity so they've fallen in love with action and button mashing rather than a tear-evoking, cut-scene filled story.

I would disagree. The only emotion I've ever felt while playing a JRPG was frustration. In Morrowind for example, it's not about the characters, it's about the world. There's this massive open world which is rich and vibrant and full of interesting characters and creatures. Sure the characters don't develop much, but the world develops. It changes from this strange and alien land into a home. Also, action and button mashing are not central to Morrowind, as the combat system comes down to *click as fast as you can and whoever has the higer stats wins*. That is really not doing justice to all of the intricies of magic, ranged, and stealth combat, but at the end of the day, that's pretty much it.

 

So I guess it's just what you want from a game. Do you want an open, intricite world with lots of less defined characters, or do you want a flashy cut-scene driven, story-based game.

 

I should also point out that WRPGs have something that JRPGs don't have, and that's actual role-playing. When I play FF7, I am controlling Cloud Strife. It's HIS personality, and HIS physical apperance, HIS everything. When playing a WRPG, I AM Commander Shepard, I AM the Lone Wanderer, I AM the Hero of Kvatch, I AM the Slayer of Diablo, I AM the son of Baal, I AM the Grey Warden, I AM the savior of Albion. It's not some predifined character making the choices for me, I'm making the choice. I'm controlling the fate of the world, or universe, or wasteland, or Cyrodill, or Albion, depending on the situation that the game puts you in.

Also, even in games with no story, like Mount and Blade, I make up my own story, I give the characters personality. I go on epic crusades riding beside the King of Swadia. I make the backstory. Hell, I develop my own cultures for the otherwise culture-less nations. It's these make-believe moments in games that truly stick with me, because I know that that experience is uniquely mine.

I do like certain JRPGs. For example, Fire Emblem. However, the reason I like that is not only because of the story, but also because of the tactical-strategy gameplay. That's what I really hate about most JRPGs, turn-based combat. That and random battles. If someone made a FF game and gave it real-time combat similar to the Zelda games, or maybe even Dragon Age/Baldur's Gate, I might love it (For the record, I love Crystal Chronicles for the Gamecube). However, as it stands, all I get from JRPGs is *grind, grind, grind, level up, level up, grind, grind, hour-long cutscene that may or may not be good/even relevant, grind, grind, repeat for approx. 60+ hours.*

No one is saying you can't like both a JRPG and a WRPG. 

True, but I HATE JRPGs. It is physically and mentally hard for me to play them, I can't even force myself to play them. I don't understand the appeal (warning, rant approaching) terrible writing, bad stories, bad combat, bad everything. I get that some people like the stories, but that's all JRPGs are, a long CG-I movie held together with combat that controls like a DVD menu. Also, JRPGs are too simple for me. I don't want to "level up", I want each skill to level up, I want a long list of skills that I have to allot skill points into, I want perks, I want percentages, I want mathematical euqations to determine my chance of defeating an enemy, I want inventory management.

 

Morrowind (I swear I can use this game as an example for everything) did it perfect. It didn't matter if my weapon touched an enemy, if my skills weren't high enough, I had a low chance of hitting him. If I picked a lock and my skill wasn't high enough, I failed.

 

I also notice a massive lack of things to do in JRPGs. Theres no stealth, lock-picking, dialouge trees, weapon degredation, jobs, trade, exploration. It just seems that every JRPG could be done as a CG-I movie, and the effect would be the same (end rant).



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Ssenkahdavic on 13 March 2010
SmoothCriminal said:

True, but I HATE JRPGs. It is physically and mentally hard for me to play them, I can't even force myself to play them. I don't understand the appeal (warning, rant approaching) terrible writing, bad stories, bad combat, bad everything. I get that some people like the stories, but that's all JRPGs are, a long CG-I movie held together with combat that controls like a DVD menu. Also, JRPGs are too simple for me. I don't want to "level up", I want each skill to level up, I want a long list of skills that I have to allot skill points into, I want perks, I want percentages, I want mathematical euqations to determine my chance of defeating an enemy, I want inventory management.

 

Morrowind (I swear I can use this game as an example for everything) did it perfect. It didn't matter if my weapon touched an enemy, if my skills weren't high enough, I had a low chance of hitting him. If I picked a lock and my skill wasn't high enough, I failed.

 

I also notice a massive lack of things to do in JRPGs. Theres no stealth, lock-picking, dialouge trees, weapon degredation, jobs (Many Final Fantasy Games), trade (Suikoden 3/4/5), exploration (Are you serious?). It just seems that every JRPG could be done as a CG-I movie, and the effect would be the same (end rant).

I laughed a bit. (and added a few things for ya)



 

  

The Only True Next Gen Game - Hero-U

Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Robert A. Heinlein

Stats87 on 13 March 2010

Some people seem to forget that very few JRPG's are multi-million sellers. Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts and Dragon Quest are the only multi-million games I can think of off the top of my head. (Pokemon is different kind of beast) The rest generally sell in the 6 figures with a few others breaking 1 Million.

Also, even if FFXIII "only" sells 5 Million, I believe that's still more then any other WRPG released this generation.



mitsuhide on 13 March 2010
Stats87 said:

Some people seem to forget that very few JRPG's are multi-million sellers. Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts and Dragon Quest are the only multi-million games I can think of off the top of my head. (Pokemon is different kind of beast) The rest generally sell in the 6 figures with a few others breaking 1 Million.

Also, even if FFXIII "only" sells 5 Million, I believe that's still more then any other WRPG released this generation.

this is very true, and something i forget its that Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest and Kingdom Hearts are exceptions to the rule that RPGs dont sell over 1 million very often, most, if they are good, sell between 500'000 to 800'000 with a few breaking 1 million but FF has consistently for at least 13 years hit 5 million sold, apart from FFVII which sold 9 million



End of 2014 Hardware Predictions (03/03/14)

PlayStation 4: 12-15million

Xbox One: 7-10 million

Wii U: 8-9 million (Changed 01/04/2014 from 7-9 --> 8-9 million)

SmoothCriminal on 13 March 2010
Ssenkahdavic said:
SmoothCriminal said:

True, but I HATE JRPGs. It is physically and mentally hard for me to play them, I can't even force myself to play them. I don't understand the appeal (warning, rant approaching) terrible writing, bad stories, bad combat, bad everything. I get that some people like the stories, but that's all JRPGs are, a long CG-I movie held together with combat that controls like a DVD menu. Also, JRPGs are too simple for me. I don't want to "level up", I want each skill to level up, I want a long list of skills that I have to allot skill points into, I want perks, I want percentages, I want mathematical euqations to determine my chance of defeating an enemy, I want inventory management.

 

Morrowind (I swear I can use this game as an example for everything) did it perfect. It didn't matter if my weapon touched an enemy, if my skills weren't high enough, I had a low chance of hitting him. If I picked a lock and my skill wasn't high enough, I failed.

 

I also notice a massive lack of things to do in JRPGs. Theres no stealth, lock-picking, dialouge trees, weapon degredation, jobs (Many Final Fantasy Games), trade (Suikoden 3/4/5), exploration (Are you serious?). It just seems that every JRPG could be done as a CG-I movie, and the effect would be the same (end rant).

I laughed a bit. (and added a few things for ya)

jobs: although they are in many FF games (Let it be known that FF1-6 do have a place in my heart, although not a very large one) what I meant to say was side-quests. I realize that some JRPGs do have them, but they are rarely as well fleshed out, and often of little consequence. For example, in Mount and Blade, if you aid a city in a certain nation, that city likes you more. Therefore, the country likes you more. Therefore, their enemy hates you more. This can lead to a full-scale war, in which you can decide who wins or loses.

 

Trade: What I mean is a fluctuating econemy, caravans (some JRPGs may have these), limited supply. Take (here we go AGAIN) Morrowind for example. The shop keepers only had a certain amount of money per day, so you would have to find another shop or wait for a day that the shop keeper had more money.

Exploration: Take (guess which game!) Morrowind for example. In Daggerfall (the second in the series) the world was LITERALLY bigger than the British Isles, but it was boring as crap. The world was empty (at least relative to Morrowind). In Morrowind (third in the series), every dungeon was unique, there were hundreds of books to find and read (I believe that Morrowind still holds the record for most text in a game, ever), and new spells, weapons, armor, and items to find. I won't say that JRPGs don't have exploration, but just not on the level of WRPGs.

(Notice that there are exceptions to every rule, and JRPGs are no different. But, as a general rule, I believe my statements to be *mostly* true. Does that mean I hate all JRPGs? No, I love Fire Emblem and the Zelda games (if those are even RPGs).)

 

P.S. I am the kind of guy that sits down by himself and plays Dungeons and Dragons for three hours (yes, I do need a life). I love the mathmatical side of RPGs, the story is just an added bonus for me. Everyone games for a different reason, I game primarily because I want to get inside a game, figure out how it works, and then beat it. Some people game for stories, and that's fine too. Like I said, stories are secondary to me.

P.P.S. No disrespect meant towards any JRPG fans, even if you're all stupid (Kidding!!). Even though I sometimes convey myself like an asshole, I really just have very strong opinions.



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Ssenkahdavic on 13 March 2010
SmoothCriminal said:

jobs: although they are in many FF games (Let it be known that FF1-6 do have a place in my heart, although not a very large one) what I meant to say was side-quests. I realize that some JRPGs do have them, but they are rarely as well fleshed out, and often of little consequence. For example, in Mount and Blade, if you aid a city in a certain nation, that city likes you more. Therefore, the country likes you more. Therefore, their enemy hates you more. This can lead to a full-scale war, in which you can decide who wins or loses.

 

Trade: What I mean is a fluctuating econemy, caravans (some JRPGs may have these), limited supply. Take (here we go AGAIN) Morrowind for example. The shop keepers only had a certain amount of money per day, so you would have to find another shop or wait for a day that the shop keeper had more money.

Exploration: Take (guess which game!) Morrowind for example. In Daggerfall (the second in the series) the world was LITERALLY bigger than the British Isles, but it was boring as crap. The world was empty (at least relative to Morrowind). In Morrowind (third in the series), every dungeon was unique, there were hundreds of books to find and read (I believe that Morrowind still holds the record for most text in a game, ever), and new spells, weapons, armor, and items to find. I won't say that JRPGs don't have exploration, but just not on the level of WRPGs.

(Notice that there are exceptions to every rule, and JRPGs are no different. But, as a general rule, I believe my statements to be *mostly* true. Does that mean I hate all JRPGs? No, I love Fire Emblem and the Zelda games (if those are even RPGs).)

 

P.S. I am the kind of guy that sits down by himself and plays Dungeons and Dragons for three hours (yes, I do need a life). I love the mathmatical side of RPGs, the story is just an added bonus for me. Everyone games for a different reason, I game primarily because I want to get inside a game, figure out how it works, and then beat it. Some people game for stories, and that's fine too. Like I said, stories are secondary to me.

P.P.S. No disrespect meant towards any JRPG fans, even if you're all stupid (Kidding!!). Even though I sometimes convey myself like an asshole, I really just have very strong opinions.

There ya go.  Spelling things out works much better.  Daggerfall is my favorite Elderscrolls game, period (as well as probably the buggiest game that actually works ever created, it is in my profile).  

With the DnD comment it all comes into focus.  You seem like the type that enjoys "Create Your Own Adventure Games", or "Choose your own Path Adventure Games" (IE a good portion of WRPGs), where some others enjoy Novels (here is the world, you do not change it but enjoy the RIDE! JRPGs).

That is where a good deal of the resentment towards JRPGs comes from.  They are different and that is a GOOD THING.  Variety is good, even if you do not like it (some people will).  I personally enjoy RPGs, all manner of them (but that does not mean ALL of them)

 



 

  

The Only True Next Gen Game - Hero-U

Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
Robert A. Heinlein

CaptainPrice on 13 March 2010

Most posters are dismissing the idea that JRPG are in decline, but it's hard to argue that this has been a good generation for them. I think FFXIII is the best reviewed JRPG this generation (PS3/X360 anyway - I don't pay attention to Wii or handhelds) and it's only at 83 on metacritic. So there's half a dozen or so WRPGs ON CONSOLE that have better metascores than the best JRPG. A genre can only survive on past glories for so long.



Khuutra on 13 March 2010
CaptainPrice said:

Most posters are dismissing the idea that JRPG are in decline, but it's hard to argue that this has been a good generation for them. I think FFXIII is the best reviewed JRPG this generation (PS3/X360 anyway - I don't pay attention to Wii or handhelds) and it's only at 83 on metacritic. So there's half a dozen or so WRPGs ON CONSOLE that have better metascores than the best JRPG. A genre can only survive on past glories for so long.

Metascores rarely translate directly into success or failure this gen.



CaptainPrice on 13 March 2010
Khuutra said:
CaptainPrice said:

Most posters are dismissing the idea that JRPG are in decline, but it's hard to argue that this has been a good generation for them. I think FFXIII is the best reviewed JRPG this generation (PS3/X360 anyway - I don't pay attention to Wii or handhelds) and it's only at 83 on metacritic. So there's half a dozen or so WRPGs ON CONSOLE that have better metascores than the best JRPG. A genre can only survive on past glories for so long.

Metascores rarely translate directly into success or failure this gen.

That's largely true for individual games, but when you're talking about a whole genre getting mediocre reviews there's bound to be some effect. Apart from anything else, potential newcomers are less likely to try a genre if there are no stand out titles. FFXIII is hardly going to hook new gamers like FFVII did, and it's the best the genre's got. (By the way, I forgot that Valkyria Chronicles and Demon's Souls have metascores in the high 80s, but they're pretty unusual JRPGs - one is basically a turn-based strategy game, the other a super-hard WRPG-alike. Games like that could never really have the wide appeal of a FF.)



Stats87 on 13 March 2010
CaptainPrice said:
Khuutra said:
CaptainPrice said:

Most posters are dismissing the idea that JRPG are in decline, but it's hard to argue that this has been a good generation for them. I think FFXIII is the best reviewed JRPG this generation (PS3/X360 anyway - I don't pay attention to Wii or handhelds) and it's only at 83 on metacritic. So there's half a dozen or so WRPGs ON CONSOLE that have better metascores than the best JRPG. A genre can only survive on past glories for so long.

Metascores rarely translate directly into success or failure this gen.

That's largely true for individual games, but when you're talking about a whole genre getting mediocre reviews there's bound to be some effect. Apart from anything else, potential newcomers are less likely to try a genre if there are no stand out titles. FFXIII is hardly going to hook new gamers like FFVII did, and it's the best the genre's got. (By the way, I forgot that Valkyria Chronicles and Demon's Souls have metascores in the high 80s, but they're pretty unusual JRPGs - one is basically a turn-based strategy game, the other a super-hard WRPG-alike. Games like that could never really have the wide appeal of a FF.)

I think review scores are lower because the expecations of the average reviewer has changed. Most of the RPG's that have come out have stuck to the formula and haven't deviated much from prior games in the franchse or genre. Those like myself find ourselves disagreeing with reviewers a lot because games like Lost Odyssey are giving us what we want. Whereas it seems more and more critics want games like Oblivion and Mass Effect.

Also, Demon's Souls is the best reviewed RPG from Japan and Valkyria Chronicles is the 2nd best when it comes to 360/PS3. Which fits into what I just said, as these two games are probably the most unique of the bunch.