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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - 5th year of Xbox 360 : The Unreal Engine Effect.

An okay article.



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noodson said:

There's a lot of of games out there with 4x MSAA already both on 360 and PS3 and it's not because of eDRAM. For example GT5P in 720p mode has 4xMSAA AND running at 60fps.

In fact you can't even fit some 720p+2xmsaa in the 10MB of the Xenos (9.6MB precisely), u have to tile the rendering (multi pass of render). Alan wake doesn't have 4x msaa though (neither Halo Reach), last screen from Remedy are supersampled and there s already a lot of tearing going on according the recent vids of the game.

 

Here is some facts :

 

 

 

 

Wow. You are either misinformed or hugely bias.

Remedy official statement on their very own website:

# 15 miro:
I'm pretty sure you'll be very happy with our shipping solution. I'm pretty sure you'll be very happy with our delivery solution. We hate dithering and aliasing just as much as you I think. We hate dithering and aliasing is just as much as you I think. Hardware 4xAA on the Xbox360 is nice for a lot of things - it did take us a while to get the most out of it (Eg, refactoring the renderer quite a few times). Hardware 4xAA on the Xbox 360 is nice for a lot of things - it did take us a while to get the most out of it (Eg, refactoring the renderer quite a few times).

Shadow aliasing doesn't really have anything to do with the generic framebuffer resolution or aliasing quality, but having the game run with 4xAA in the framebuffer is kind of rubbing in any other visual quality problems there might be. Shadow aliasing does not really have anything to do with the generic framebuffer resolution or aliasing quality, but having The Game run with 4xAA in the framebuffer is kind of rubbing in any other visual quality problems there might be.

We don't like ugly things, so we fix them before shipping. We do not like ugly things, so we fix them before shipping.

SamiV. SamiV.

__________________
-- --
Lead Technical Artist, Remedy Co-Founder Lead Technical Artist, Remedy Co-Founder

 

# 20:
We like 4xAA. We like 4xAA. Due to the alpha-to-coverage feature on the Xbox 360 GPU, it's one of the key reasons we can render a lot of "alpha test" foliage like trees and bushes without them starting to shimmer or dither (as alpha-to-coverage with 4xAA effectively gives us 5 samples of alpha "blend" without actually using alpha blend). Due to the alpha-to-coverage feature on the Xbox 360 GPU, it's one of the key reasons we can render a lot of "alpha test" foliage like trees and bushes without them starting to shimmer or dither (as alpha-to-coverage With 4xAA effectively gives us samples of 5 alpha "blend" without actually using alpha blend). Of course that leads into a lot of interesting ways how to get the the other "standard" z-buffer based rendering schemes to not alias, but let's not get into that discussion right now. Of course that leads into a lot of interesting ways how to get the the other "standard" z-buffer based rendering schemes to not alias, but not let's get into that discussion right now.

SamiV. SamiV.

__________________
-- --
Lead Technical Artist, Remedy Co-Founder Lead Technical Artist, Remedy Co-Founder

 

# 21:
The game is locked to 30 FPS (well, except menus, manuscript pages, etc which run at 60 FPS). The Game is locked to 30 FPS (well, except menus, manuscript pages, etc which run at 60 FPS). All cinematics are guaranteed to run 30 FPS (as we actually background load the next location, in case there's a location change). All cinematics are guaranteed to run 30 frames per second (as background we actually load the next location, in case there's a location change). If you saw video tearing in the published press material, it's 99% due to video sync issues (Eg, PAL video cams or 59.97 Hz vs. 60.00 Hz screen update). If you saw video tearing published in the press material, it's 99% due to video sync issues (Eg, PAL video cams or 59.97 Hz vs.. 60.00 Hz screen update).

While playing Alan Wake on a Xbox 360, if the game framerate drops below 30 FPS we resort to screen tearing (same idea as Gears of War uses). Alan Wake while playing on a Xbox 360, if The Game frame rate drops below 30 frames per second we resort to screen tearing (same idea as Gears of War uses).

We're right now just fixing bugs and making sure nowhere in the game would the framerate never dip below 30 FPS. We're right now just fixing bugs and making sure nowhere in The Game would the frame rate never dip below 30 FPS. I know there's still a few heavy locations in the game where we resort to dipping below 30 FPS, but we're working very very hard to get all those solved. I know there's still a few heavy locations in The Game where we resort to dipping below 30 FPS, but we're working very very hard to get all those solved.

SamiV. SamiV.

__________________
-- --
Lead Technical Artist, Remedy Co-Founder Lead Technical Artist, Remedy Co-Founder


http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=de&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://forum.alanwake.com/showthread.php%3Fp%3D60357&rurl=translate.google.de&usg=ALkJrhijOLKmxxTHtWEqP1A7ZWg7eUSsHQ#post60357



Sharky54 said:
selnor said:
Sharky54 said:
Am I the only one who doesn't find the graphics of alan wake to be "zomg the most amazing thing ever"?

Also, AA is good and all. But it doesn't improve the graphics. Just gets rid of jaggies. So this doesn't help much.


Certainly in terms of art, it's your opinion. But in term of technicalaities it's impressive. AA isnt just about jaggies on polygons. It's also about clear textures, non jagged shadows, shadow clipping, lighitng AA etc. Alan Wake is the first to have all 4xMSAA. Most games wont even AA half that stuff.

 

 

I have tested AA out on my PC. Farcry. 0 AA to 8 AA. Not a huge difference. Its not nearly as important as you think it is. It is nice and all. But it just makes everything have sharper edges. Also the shadows are nothing special imo. Farcry and crysis have great shadows as well.

Yes but presumably you play in really high resolutions on PC monitors (as opposed to large TV HD screens) so jaggies don't seem so prevalent.



Badassbab said:
Sharky54 said:
selnor said:
Sharky54 said:
Am I the only one who doesn't find the graphics of alan wake to be "zomg the most amazing thing ever"?

Also, AA is good and all. But it doesn't improve the graphics. Just gets rid of jaggies. So this doesn't help much.


Certainly in terms of art, it's your opinion. But in term of technicalaities it's impressive. AA isnt just about jaggies on polygons. It's also about clear textures, non jagged shadows, shadow clipping, lighitng AA etc. Alan Wake is the first to have all 4xMSAA. Most games wont even AA half that stuff.

 

 

I have tested AA out on my PC. Farcry. 0 AA to 8 AA. Not a huge difference. Its not nearly as important as you think it is. It is nice and all. But it just makes everything have sharper edges. Also the shadows are nothing special imo. Farcry and crysis have great shadows as well.

Yes but presumably you play in really high resolutions on PC monitors (as opposed to large TV HD screens) so jaggies don't seem so prevalent.

1080p HDTV IS my monitor. So yeah. That means nothing either :P



The figure illustrates a block diagram of a “graphics processing system” that supports oversampling anti-aliasing. The system includes a graphics processor (GPU), a sample memory (the standard memory on today's video cards) and a custom memory module (the embedded RAM).

This custom memory has been created mostly to perform anti-aliasing operations and help overcome today's biggest problem in graphics: memory bandwidth. By using this embedded RAM, which is similar to a processor's cache memory, the Xbox 360 will be able to run games at 720p HDTV resolution, that is 1280x720, with full screen anti-aliasing and almost no impact on framerate.



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Sharkey-

How big is the TV? Also PCs can display really high res and if your playing your PC on an HD TV than it will be most likely be able to display much higher resolutions than 1080p and I can only assume you play at resolutions higher than that.



I didn't say u can't do 4xMSAA ...i said u have to tile (wich is a big hit in general performance), but alan wake doesn't have 4x multi sampling it's a temporal AA, that's why they only mention "AA" and not clearly MSAA. Anyway it would no way be the first game with such IQ as u claim it is.

 

And yes they already admit, the engine has tearing "While playing Alan Wake on a Xbox 360, if the game framerate drops below 30 FPS we resort to screen tearing (same idea as Gears of War uses)"

Tearing is a framerate issue, always, vbl desynchronized.



noodson said:

I didn't say u can't do 4xMSAA ...i said u have to tile (wich is a big hit in general performance), but alan wake doesn't have 4x multi sampling it's a temporal AA and it would no way be the first game with such IQ as u claim it is.


It's confirmed as FACT from Remedy that Alan Wake has 4x Multi Sampling Anti Aliasing. It is the first console game to have Full 4xMSAA. Any game before has only done 4xMSAA on just polygons. GT5P for example only does AA on the cars and hands in cockpit mode. A reason why the scenery looks jaggy as hell. Remedy explain everything about the engine. EDRam chip is quite extensive at 500mhz clock speed and the equivelant of 64mb DDR3. EDRam is extensively alot quicker than DDR3, especially considering it's internal like Cache to.

EDIT: Nice to see you mention tearing , when the dev clearly says 99% of the time it doesnt tear. And the last few heavy areas are being ironed out, so that the Framerate never goes below 30FPS, which means NO tearing ever in the game. Technically Alan Wake is a monster this gen along with what Reach is pulling.



About time they make the UE4 Engine



                                  

                                       That's Gordon Freeman in "Real-Life"
 

 

Since we are now on topic of memory, people do realize how fast and efficient the XDR in the PS3 is right? Not to mention that the Cell can call directly to the XDR? The thing was meant to do graphics, the question now is how well can people work with it in the long run to further improve the effects that are already becoming impressive for a console and just use the RSX as a poly pusher.