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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - 200 plus AI on screen - Halo Reach

dahuman on 23 February 2010
ssj12 said:
Legend11 said:
dahuman said:

wooo since we are on topic of AI, I got some cool stuff!

 


The topic is AI in Halo Reach in a forum dedicated to Xbox 360.  How did you even think it was on topic to spam PC videos in it?  Seriously you've been here for awhile now and should know better.

I agree, we all know PC can handle way more AI streams then consoles. Videos were cool though.

 

Still, I don't see 200 individual AI steams. I could see pre-done battle scenes in a very far off distance where scripted AI destroy each other.

essentially all AIs are scripts, the difference is how dynamic they can be, if you ask me, I think that a single core of a xenos or a properly programmed SPU can do AIs just as flexible, I think it's more on the devs part on having to gimp the AI for console games due to controls and other display issues.



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huaxiong90 on 23 February 2010

Must we have this argument all the time?



Rockstar: Announce Bully 2 already and make gamers proud!

Kojima: Come out with Project S already!

iWarMachine on 23 February 2010

"In what looks like the "dumbest" comparison, EGM have decided to side by side compare Halo 3 - due out on release in under 3 weeks, with the alpha build of Sony's KillZone 2 that was previewed at E3. Despite the game being almost a year away from completion, and despite the developers noting that the A.I was not yet complete, the journalists at EGM wanted to include the game in their "Best Of.." section of the magazine and it seemed like the only category best suited for KillZone 2 was the "Dumbest AI"."

idiot comparison is idiot...

meanwhile..

This Year's Brightest Games: 2009 AiGameDev.com Awards for Game AI (Results)



KILLZONE 2 : Best AI in a AAA Game

The combat AI that Guerrilla Games built over the past 7-8 years since Shellshock: Nam '67, including Killzone 1 for the PS2 and Killzone: Liberation for the PSP has arguably become the best in industry with this latest iteration. The enemy behaviors are dynamic and adaptive, showing off both linear sections and large open areas of the game thanks to its tactical reasoning.

The AI in KILLZONE 2 in particular shines in the Skirmish mode where you can play with computer-controlled bots in large open maps designed for multiplayer, and free of scripts and trigger boxes. The bots were intended for offline play where you have 7 bots on your side against 8 enemies, but you can also compete online with your friends against various combinations of bots. Not only were the bots fun to play against, according many reviewers including to Ryan O'Donnell of Area5.TV, but they even passed an informal Turing test with journalists from the CO-OP show (season 2, episode 1) and others:

“The bot thing is pretty amazing. I was telling you earlier that I was playing it and it was behaving in such a particularly clever way in this one area that I had to check that I wasn't play online.”
— John Davison, WhatTheyPlay.com

Some reviewers even speculated that Skirmish and multiplayer bots were included simply to emphasize the strength of the combat AI. You can watch some High Quality videos of matches against the bots in the Salmun Market or the Radec Academy.

Cooperative buddy AI that accompany you through the game (while actually fighting alongside you) is generally a hard problem that nobody has got entirely right to-date, and there's still room for improvement in Killzone 2's buddies. However, it's one of the best attempts yet and given the underlying engine there's even more potential. In particular, there's a balance to be found between the aggressiveness that can save you in tricky situations vs. buddies playing safe so you don't need to revive them too often.
http://aigamedev.com/open/editorial/2009-awards-results/



I'm Back! - Proud owner of the best doomed handheld of all time!

Hisiru on 23 February 2010

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iWarMachine said:
Hisiru said:
Killzoned said:
Mendicate Bias said:
OK this better end this once and for all. This is a list of the top ten most influential AI games and is from a website that is based completely around the discussion of Artificial Intelligence. Actual developers use this site as a discussion board for programming dynamic AI's in video games.

http://aigamedev.com/open/highlights/top-ai-games/

Here is another article on their site about Halo 3

http://aigamedev.com/open/reviews/halo-ai/

You can deny it all you want but Halo has been known throughout the gaming industry for its exceptional AI. So for some of you to doubt that Halo Reach will have AI as good as Killzone 2 when the previous Halo's still have more advanced AI in certain aspects is a joke.

LoL you do know that the video that the guy posted on Killzone 2 is on easy/normal right?

Try playing it on the hardest mode, the AI is clever than ever! Cleveriest AI i ever encounter

"Elite Difficulty"

"Elite difficulty is the only difficulty that removes the crosshair during regular movement, and becomes available only in iron-sight." 

No, it's not the easy/normal mode. Unfortunately the AI is bad even on the Elite mode.


you're wrong he's playing it on easy... he just said "elite" just to have more views, the comments in the video said that he's playing on easy.

And how can you remove the crosshair like that without the Elite difficulty?



Packie on 23 February 2010
Killzoned said:
Packie said:
Killzoned said:
Mendicate Bias said:
OK this better end this once and for all. This is a list of the top ten most influential AI games and is from a website that is based completely around the discussion of Artificial Intelligence. Actual developers use this site as a discussion board for programming dynamic AI's in video games.

http://aigamedev.com/open/highlights/top-ai-games/

Here is another article on their site about Halo 3

http://aigamedev.com/open/reviews/halo-ai/

You can deny it all you want but Halo has been known throughout the gaming industry for its exceptional AI. So for some of you to doubt that Halo Reach will have AI as good as Killzone 2 when the previous Halo's still have more advanced AI in certain aspects is a joke.

LoL you do know that the video that the guy posted on Killzone 2 is on easy/normal right?

Try playing it on the hardest mode, the AI is clever than ever! Cleveriest AI i ever encounter
Actually, Its only harder because you die very quickly. I didn't notice any changes in the AI even if I notched up the difficulity.

 

You probably didn't pay much attention but try playing on Skirmish mode and see how the AI React, they play like real players.

And didn't KZ2 win the AIgamedev.com AI of the year award?

"The combat AI that Guerrilla Games built over the past 7-8 years since Shellshock: Nam '67, including Killzone 1 for the PS2 and Killzone: Liberation for the PSP has arguably become the best in industry with this latest iteration. The enemy behaviors are dynamic and adaptive, showing off both linear sections and large open areas of the game thanks to its tactical reasoning.

The AI in KILLZONE 2 in particular shines in the Skirmish mode where you can play with computer-controlled bots in large open maps designed for multiplayer, and free of scripts and trigger boxes. The bots were intended for offline play where you have 7 bots on your side against 8 enemies, but you can also compete online with your friends against various combinations of bots. Not only were the bots fun to play against, according many reviewers including to Ryan O'Donnell of Area5.TV, but they even passed an informal Turing test with journalists from the CO-OP show (season 2, episode 1) and others:

“The bot thing is pretty amazing. I was telling you earlier that I was playing it and it was behaving in such a particularly clever way in this one area that I had to check that I wasn't play online.”
— John Davison, WhatTheyPlay.com

Some reviewers even speculated that Skirmish and multiplayer bots were included simply to emphasize the strength of the combat AI. You can watch some High Quality videos of matches against the bots in the Salmun Market or the Radec Academy.

Cooperative buddy AI that accompany you through the game (while actually fighting alongside you) is generally a hard problem that nobody has got entirely right to-date, and there's still room for improvement in Killzone 2's buddies. However, it's one of the best attempts yet and given the underlying engine there's even more potential. In particular, there's a balance to be found between the aggressiveness that can save you in tricky situations vs. buddies playing safe so you don't need to revive them too often.

The Rest

See the rest of the awards in detail at AIGameDev.com!

 


As impressive the KZ2 AI was(especially in skirmish), The AI in skirmish still felt kinda empty. It never gave me the impression that I was fighting real people, Im not saying its stupid but the AI acted like any other standard FPS AI would react. I only play Killzone 2 for the multiplayer, that's where the game truly shines.

 

P.S AIGameDev link doesn't work, its under maintenance or something. thanks anyway.



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gekkokamen on 23 February 2010

200 AIs don't mean only playable characters and NPCs...lots of them are, for sure, though.



ssj12 on 23 February 2010
dahuman said:
ssj12 said:
Legend11 said:
dahuman said:

wooo since we are on topic of AI, I got some cool stuff!

 


The topic is AI in Halo Reach in a forum dedicated to Xbox 360.  How did you even think it was on topic to spam PC videos in it?  Seriously you've been here for awhile now and should know better.

I agree, we all know PC can handle way more AI streams then consoles. Videos were cool though.

 

Still, I don't see 200 individual AI steams. I could see pre-done battle scenes in a very far off distance where scripted AI destroy each other.

essentially all AIs are scripts, the difference is how dynamic they can be, if you ask me, I think that a single core of a xenos or a properly programmed SPU can do AIs just as flexible, I think it's more on the devs part on having to gimp the AI for console games due to controls and other display issues.

I think its more how you want a scene or individually coded AI. Do we want a cutscene? Dynasty Warriors AI? or good AI? Good AI takes a good amount of resources. Dynasty Warriors takes virtually zero resources since there is only like 3 commands in their scripts copy and pasted a billion times over. Cutscenes, being coded to run without any interaction, other than possibly skipping it, takes all resources, but allows for a ton of AI streams.



PC gaming is better than console gaming. Always.     We are Anonymous, We are Legion    Kick-ass interview   Great Flash Series Here    Anime Ratings     Make and Play Please
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Feylic on 23 February 2010
Hisiru said:
Feylic said:
Hisiru said:
Feylic said:
Hisiru said:
Feylic said:
 

So.. how do you know what type of "AI" they are talking about? All the characters in that video use some sort of AI, they react to player actions, thats what AI is. So the AI that these guys are talking about could be the exact same.

We are talking about Halo, so of course they will use a good AI, just look at Halo 3 ODST. Also, you can simply watch the Vidoc, so you will have your answer.

It probably will be good, but that doesn't mean it's some magical AI that is vastly different from something used in Heavenly Sword, or any other game. AI works in pretty much the same way in every game.

It IS vastly different from something used in Heavenly Sword. In Heavenly Sword the enemies are just stupid characters trying to attack you and sometimes they will be standing in front of you without doing anything (even if they have the chance to attack you), so you can easily kill the enemies because they are simply zombies. In Halo the enemies are always moving and searching for some kind of wall, so they will be protected by the wall, in this case they are really trying to survive AND attack you at the same time. You can't even compare. And now, the AI is even more improved according to Bungie.

Ugh, no it is not. Those "stupid" charaters you see in Heavenly Sword, do the same things the characters do in Halo. The main difference is the melee to FPS type of fighting scheme. In most FPS's, you don't get stunned, or stopped, every time you get hit, so multiple enemies are allowed to attack you. In a game like Heavenly, you will get stunned/stopped when an enemy hits you, if all the 100's of enemies around you were allowed to all attack (which granted would be more realistic) the game would be impossible. This doesn't mean they are "stupid", they still follow a set up protocols based on what the player character is doing. The reason enemies in Halo search for walls, is because it is a shooting game, and walls can provide cover. Why would a character in Heavenly Sword search for a wall to hide behind, when they need to be at melee range to attack.

No, the main difference is that the enemies in Halo are always trying to survive and move (something that you can do from any distance). There is no excuse to compare both AIs because they are different and they act different (the fact that the enemies in Heavenly Sword won't try to survive makes this comparison an absurd), this has nothing to do with the type of game.  And no, it wouldn't be impossible if they know how to make a balanced game. The problem is that Heavenly Sword is just a button smash game trying to be impressive using a high ammount of dumb enemies that will wait for your attack. 

 

@Deneidez

It' is a flaw, if the enemy is in front of you he should shoot and not ignore the fact that you are there and go to his position, it's an AI problem. Using a better AI the character will ignore the pre-programed actions and attack you because almost every FPS game has pre-programed actions and enemies that should go to a pre-determined position. For example, you can clearly see that the enemies has a pre-determined position in COD (and some of them has a path to follow) but they will attack you even if they aren't in their positions, they won't be limited by the pre-determined actions because they have a good AI. This is not an excuse, the AI is bad in KZ2.

 

@demonfox13

 

"KZ2's AI is easily comparable to Halo's."

Only in your mind.

 

 

Well I was going to reply with something more, then saw your last comment and remembered it's pointless to try to explain things to people like you.



Hisiru on 23 February 2010
Feylic said:

Well I was going to reply with something more, then saw your last comment and remembered it's pointless to try to explain things to people like you.

You meant, people like me who gave you explanation showing that you can't compare both AIs if the characters in Heavenly Sword aren't even trying to survive (and you will ignore this fact)?

In Halo 3 you will see the enemies trying to explore the place in order to find you (and they can even use vehicles in a large map), they will try to survive, they will try to be protected by walls, they will dodge etc. In Heavenly Sword the enemies has only one thing to do and only one point to go (your direction).

The only action in Heavenly Sword (during the battles) is produced by you and your massive button smash. The action in Halo 3 is produced by you and the enemies trying to avoid your attacks, trying to drive vehicles, trying to be protected by walls, trying to survive and give you more trouble.

I am not saying that Heavenly Sword is a bad game (it's not), but you just can't compare both AIs.



JerCotter7 on 23 February 2010
Hisiru said:

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iWarMachine said:
Hisiru said:
Killzoned said:
Mendicate Bias said:
OK this better end this once and for all. This is a list of the top ten most influential AI games and is from a website that is based completely around the discussion of Artificial Intelligence. Actual developers use this site as a discussion board for programming dynamic AI's in video games.

http://aigamedev.com/open/highlights/top-ai-games/

Here is another article on their site about Halo 3

http://aigamedev.com/open/reviews/halo-ai/

You can deny it all you want but Halo has been known throughout the gaming industry for its exceptional AI. So for some of you to doubt that Halo Reach will have AI as good as Killzone 2 when the previous Halo's still have more advanced AI in certain aspects is a joke.

LoL you do know that the video that the guy posted on Killzone 2 is on easy/normal right?

Try playing it on the hardest mode, the AI is clever than ever! Cleveriest AI i ever encounter

"Elite Difficulty"

"Elite difficulty is the only difficulty that removes the crosshair during regular movement, and becomes available only in iron-sight." 

No, it's not the easy/normal mode. Unfortunately the AI is bad even on the Elite mode.


you're wrong he's playing it on easy... he just said "elite" just to have more views, the comments in the video said that he's playing on easy.

And how can you remove the crosshair like that without the Elite difficulty?

By changing a setting? And nice try posting an article from 2007 when KZ2 released in 2009.