You don't have to agree with me that COD<BC2 or vice versa.

All I want you to agree with is that they are NOT similar games. Simply a game being a shooter does not mean it has the same emphasis in certain gameplay departments. That was the original and main contention I had with you, do you still agree or disagreee?

What's wrong with that? I've seen lots of cases in the beta where snipers flock on the same hills.

Because in an objective based game, we need to have infantrymen defending the crates up and close. Also, I have a theory of diminishing marginal kills with snipers, sure they might kill more if they have 2 snipers, but 3? 4? ESPECIALLY if they're from the same spot and POV. At least spread out more and cover all the angles.

Oh I see. That brings us to the topic of objective based gameplay. Thankfully BC2 is an objective based game rather than a frigging DM, but now that you mention winning, I actually don't care if my team wins in BC2. This must be a big flaw in the game design with Battlefield games, because I couldn't care less about winning. The only thing I watch is my own stats. For me it feels, and it is sad, that it's just two groups of soldiers killing each other and activating/deactivating these explosives at some random objectives - which feels very artificial. And after each round it switches, so all of a sudden I'm American defender again after being Russian attacker.

I come from Enemy Territory (the original and Quake Wars), the master of objective based gameplay, and there it actually feels meaningful to try to make your team win.

So at this point I'm hoping for clans to give the motivation to really play for the team.

And this comes from a huge team-player. It's really a pity, because I totally love the feeling when you are in your little squad of 3-4 guys doing things together.

Thoughts?

Of course not everyone is going to like mag, its an acquired taste of sorts but when you start participating in the larger scale game modes it can be quite addicting, I agree. I enjoy it quite a bit, its just something different. Bfbc2 looks extremely good though and through my experiences with the beta and such is sure to be a hit, day one buy for me. Im not quite sure why everyone has to bash others preferences and act like your opinion is superior to everyone else's, just because you dont happen to like a certain game doesnt mean others dont or wont, and people that base their findings off of reviews from people other than themselves really have no place voicing their opinion on said game to begin with.

My thoughts? I mean... Jesus, what can DICE possibly do if you're not motivated to complete the objectives. I think your problem is simply that you don't have any buddies to play this game with and coordinate. Although I though you 360 people will be alright with the ammount of mic owners you guys have, if you communicate and strategize with people, the objectives don't feel random. When you spam C4s to a Quad with a buddy and take out nearly 3/4s of crate B's HP, that's fun. When you're shouting to simply demolish the walls of the house so you can bring it down, that's fun. When you get a charge on the objective and you tell your buddy to run up the ladder with you and kill all the fools who just go up the stairs, that's fun. When you steal an enemy's tank and wreck havock on them, that's fun. When you tell your squad to raid the indoors objective first, and you're wielding our shotty at close range, that's fun.

I mean, but still, you don't have any motivation to run back and defuse a crate? You don't feel the pinch when you're defending crates that are in collapsable buildings and a enemy tank pierces through your defenses? When you see a swarm of enemies break through your front lines and you're on a Heavy MG?

I don't see the problems with switching sides after every round... SOCOM did it, don't know about the old skool games yo, but I like to have some variation in my gameplay.

Green: you're describing lots of game moments that I agree are extremely fun, and they often come naturally, but they don't necessarily connect with the feeling that winning is important. And sitting with your buddy on a hilltop sniping people is just as fun, but it doesn't help the team much.

Red: what's that? C4s? Quad? crate's HP?

Don't get me wrong, switching sides ain't bad and most games do it, but in combination with the artificial team objectives a constant switching of sides doesn't help mutch. I mean in ET QW you can play on the Strogg side the whole night if you want, so it's unfortunate that BC2 didn't use any trick to make the team play more important. Like in MAG you even have to choose one faction and stick with it.

BTW, in the final game, will there be voiced commands, taunts and cheers? You know pre-recorded one-liners you activate through a hotkey or quick-command, and which either your team or both teams can hear? I love those. Most games don't have any, but both Enemy Territorys did.

The taunts and cheers give a great feeling of "us vs them", the team-feeling that is important in objective based games.

if you want to blow up buildings, use multiple vehicles and have fun; than fuck yeah get it!

Green: I don't really find it fun to just sit around and do nothing. But even if you do garner enjoyment from that, don't you think that you're not going to get a lot of kills if there's 3 people already sniping from the same spot? Don't you have any other interest besides sniping?

Red: The quad bikes, or ATV, are very agile but also vulnerable vehicles. By putting 10-12 C4s on it, you can create an enormous explosion. If you manage to maneuver through all the chaos and enemies, and ram the bike into obective B (in the first phase of the attack) you can cause major damage to it. Objective B can be pretty hard to destroy through arming since it's not in a destructible building, it's within a crater so it's not really practicle to shoot if with the tank, and it's overlooked by many stationary MGs, rockets, etc.

I don't really see how BC's objectives are "artificial". I mean, if you're wanting some sort of attachment to them, the best way is to simply say "I want to win". Why do you want to win? Because you're playing a video game with the objective to succeed in some form. Whether it is by getting the highest K/D ratio, annoying people by TKing them, etc. It's simply you, not DICE's fault, that you're not interested in completeting the objective meant to be completed.

I mean, I really don't know what to say. All I can tell you is to loosten up, allow yourself to get soaked into the game, don't worry about K/D ratios, but simply desire to win (which is by completeting the objectives given by the devs).