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Forums - Politics Discussion - SaveJames - Liberal mom forcing her son to act like a girl?

SpokenTruth said:
Superman4 said:

If you have a Dick you are a boy, If you have a Pussy you are a girl. Its pretty simple really. If you are born with a  dick and have it removed you are still a man but with female genitalia. Same goes for people born as a woman and changing to a man. If you require synthetic hormones to change any part of your appearance, voice etc. than you are the opposite of what those hormones are making you. This liberal push to make people think they are something besides what they are born is literally the loons running the asylum. 

So your lack of knowledge makes you the expert of said knowledge?

David Dunning and Justin Kruger would love to interview you for research.

you should tell him the proper way to make the distinction

how do you distinguish between men and women?



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SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

telling children that sex and gender are separate

That's just a conundrum to you because you want it to be a conundrum. 

Teach kids the difference early on and there is no conundrum. Case in point: you.  You are having to learn the difference now and it confuses you because you've been indoctrinated (to use your own verbiage and tone) to believe they are one and the same. You are applying your current age, perspective, biases, history, experience, lack of knowledge, ignorance, etc....onto kids.

Kids do not come with pre-established notions like you, at your current age and cumulative indoctrination, do. 

I'll sum up, just because it confuses you doesn't mean it confuses kids.

"you've been indoctrinated (to use your own verbiage and tone) to believe they are one and the same. "

can you quote for me where I've said that sex and gender are the same?

"You are having to learn the difference now and it confuses you "

let me just be clear on what you are attempting to patronise me on

do you believe sex and gender vary independently?



o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

"Behavior and presentation" are certainly important components of maleness and femaleness, but remember, we are talking about both the biological and the societal aspects of maleness and femaleness. Neither gender nor sex is all encompassing. It is the sum of the two which produce the full picture of maleness and femaleness.

And yes, gender and sex can be both separate and still work together. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive so I'm not exactly sure where this disbelief is stemming from.

Let me step back and provide an example that is a little less politicized: Food. Everybody loves food, but the food we each like is determined by several different factors. There are biological factors such as taste buds and genetics, for example, to some people cilantro tastes like soap because of their genetics, which affects their taste in food ( https://www.britannica.com/story/why-does-cilantro-taste-like-soap-to-some-people ). However, there are also cultural factors. Different parts of the world considered different foods to be delicacies while others wouldn't eat those same dishes if you paid them too, because of what our society has defined to be normal and good food. You would not say that taste buds and cultural diet differences are the same thing, but you would say they work together to create an individual's taste in food.

This isn't unlike the difference between sex and gender. They are two distinct concepts, however, they do work together to produce the full view of maleness and femaleness. There is nothing in flux here, this is and has all been consistent.

As for whether a transgendered woman is a woman, lets make sure you understand the basic addition first before we move into algebra.

Note: I would like to quickly say that we are mostly talking about overall concepts of maleness and femaleness here, not the application onto the individual. One step at a time.

" Neither gender nor sex is all encompassing. It is the sum of the two which produce the full picture of maleness and femaleness."

so i'm going to ask this again but again I expect you to just ignore this question

does this mean therefore that you do not agree with the position that a man becomes a woman once he identifies as one?

"I'm not exactly sure where this disbelief is stemming from."

well because you've made the argument previously that they are not connected and now you've completely flipped on that position

"This isn't unlike the difference between sex and gender. They are two distinct concepts, however, they do work together to produce the full view of maleness and femaleness."

can you provide an example of how sex and gender work together to produce femaleness?

btw did you not say previously that sex is too complicated to be used for distinguishing between men and women?

"As for whether a transgendered woman is a woman, lets make sure you understand the basic addition first"

look, I've understood the concept long before I started talking to you, it just doesn't make sense and you're actually helping to show that

As previously stated, I don't believe it is best debate practice to get into complicated aspects of a discussion before the exceedingly simple is agreed upon. There isn't really any benefit in that, as it just instantly moves the discussion to a place where agreement is virtually impossible. Nothing that I have spoken of so far strictly applies to transgendered individuals, so there is no necessity in addressing transgenderism at this point in time. As such, I don't plan on addressing any of your questions relating specifically to transgenderism until we are able to agree upon the basics.

In regards to your assertion that I have switched positions: I have not. You simply struggle deeply with understanding these concepts and as such, you jump to a lot of conclusions that are not founded through what I am saying. This is a fault in your understanding, not a fault in the definitions behind sex and gender. I will ask you to respond to what I am saying and not what you think I might have said several months ago, as it seems this will be required to have a conversation that doesn't instantly devolve into hearsay and discussions of points I never made.

With that out of the way, I will address the one question that you did ask on the topic of what I said:

"Can you provide an example of how sex and gender work together to produce femaleness?"

Lets define "femaleness" as all of things associated with a female (biological and social and everything in between). When we think of an individual who holds these attributes of "femaleness" we may think of someone who is shorter and has breasts (generally biological characteristics) and wears dresses and has long hair (generally social (normative) characteristics). Both these biological characteristics and these social characters work together to produce the concept of "femaleness".



SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

you should tell him the proper way to make the distinction

how do you distinguish between men and women?

Well, now that depends on context, doesn't it?  Biological, sexual, gender, etc....  

Are you asking in terms of reproductive function?
Are you asking in terms of social conformity?
Are you asking in terms of romantic or sexual partner?
Are you asking in terms of expression?


Again, lack of knowledge that these are separate but integrated concepts shows that you (and he) are ignorant on the subject as a whole. It's like reading chapter 1 of a book and proclaiming your authority over the whole book regardless of the remaining chapters. Further, you don't even want to read the remaining chapters because you know it contrasts with your stated position of the subject.

I read the first line and I was done

so let me get this straight if someone comes up to you on the street and asks you if a woman wearing hot pink booty shorts just strolled by, your answer is going to be:

"Are you asking in terms of reproductive function?
Are you asking in terms of social conformity?
Are you asking in terms of romantic or sexual partner?
Are you asking in terms of expression?"

"Again, lack of knowledge that these are separate but integrated concepts shows that you (and he) are ignorant on the subject as a whole."

you have a point 

ok lets use some examples here

"Are you asking in terms of reproductive function?":                                                      

"Are you asking in terms of expression?":

one of these is clearly someone who was born female and the other is a male wearing a dress, according to what you've said these are both women correct? how do you differentiate between them since you consider both to be women?

" Further, you don't even want to read the remaining chapters because you know it contrasts with your stated position of the subject."

my only position with regards to this topic is that a man cannot become a woman, that's pretty much it

and you need to stop assuming that because I disagree with you then that means I don't understand your position, because I'm almost certain I know more about this issue than you do... but that's irrelevant



o_O.Q said:
SpokenTruth said:

Well, now that depends on context, doesn't it?  Biological, sexual, gender, etc....  

Are you asking in terms of reproductive function?
Are you asking in terms of social conformity?
Are you asking in terms of romantic or sexual partner?
Are you asking in terms of expression?


Again, lack of knowledge that these are separate but integrated concepts shows that you (and he) are ignorant on the subject as a whole. It's like reading chapter 1 of a book and proclaiming your authority over the whole book regardless of the remaining chapters. Further, you don't even want to read the remaining chapters because you know it contrasts with your stated position of the subject.

I read the first line and I was done

so let me get this straight if someone comes up to you on the street and asks you if a woman wearing hot pink booty shorts just strolled by, your answer is going to be:

Do you not understand that your question (did you just see a woman walk by wearing certain clothing) contains inherent context in the manner SpokenTruth was stating was required? So while I don't want to speak for them, SpokenTruth likely would not ask a follow up question. They would use the context of the question to determine how to respond.

That is how language works. I remember learning about context clues in elementary school. It isn't a revolutionary idea.



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sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

" Neither gender nor sex is all encompassing. It is the sum of the two which produce the full picture of maleness and femaleness."

so i'm going to ask this again but again I expect you to just ignore this question

does this mean therefore that you do not agree with the position that a man becomes a woman once he identifies as one?

"I'm not exactly sure where this disbelief is stemming from."

well because you've made the argument previously that they are not connected and now you've completely flipped on that position

"This isn't unlike the difference between sex and gender. They are two distinct concepts, however, they do work together to produce the full view of maleness and femaleness."

can you provide an example of how sex and gender work together to produce femaleness?

btw did you not say previously that sex is too complicated to be used for distinguishing between men and women?

"As for whether a transgendered woman is a woman, lets make sure you understand the basic addition first"

look, I've understood the concept long before I started talking to you, it just doesn't make sense and you're actually helping to show that

As previously stated, I don't believe it is best debate practice to get into complicated aspects of a discussion before the exceedingly simple is agreed upon. There isn't really any benefit in that, as it just instantly moves the discussion to a place where agreement is virtually impossible. Nothing that I have spoken of so far strictly applies to transgendered individuals, so there is no necessity in addressing transgenderism at this point in time. As such, I don't plan on addressing any of your questions relating specifically to transgenderism until we are able to agree upon the basics.

In regards to your assertion that I have switched positions: I have not. You simply struggle deeply with understanding these concepts and as such, you jump to a lot of conclusions that are not founded through what I am saying. This is a fault in your understanding, not a fault in the definitions behind sex and gender. I will ask you to respond to what I am saying and not what you think I might have said several months ago, as it seems this will be required to have a conversation that doesn't instantly devolve into hearsay and discussions of points I never made.

With that out of the way, I will address the one question that you did ask on the topic of what I said:

"Can you provide an example of how sex and gender work together to produce femaleness?"

Lets define "femaleness" as all of things associated with a female (biological and social and everything in between). When we think of an individual who holds these attributes of "femaleness" we may think of someone who is shorter and has breasts (generally biological characteristics) and wears dresses and has long hair (generally social (normative) characteristics). Both these biological characteristics and these social characters work together to produce the concept of "femaleness".

"Lets define "femaleness" as all of things associated with a female (biological and social and everything in between). When we think of an individual who holds these attributes of "femaleness" we may think of someone who is shorter and has breasts (generally biological characteristics) and wears dresses and has long hair (generally social (normative) characteristics). Both these biological characteristics and these social characters work together to produce the concept of "femaleness"."

what about if a woman isn't wearing clothing? she becomes less feminine in your view?



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

I read the first line and I was done

so let me get this straight if someone comes up to you on the street and asks you if a woman wearing hot pink booty shorts just strolled by, your answer is going to be:

Do you not understand that your question (did you just see a woman walk by wearing certain clothing) contains inherent context in the manner SpokenTruth was stating was required? So while I don't want to speak for them, SpokenTruth likely would not ask a follow up question. They would use the context of the question to determine how to respond.

That is how language works. I remember learning about context clues in elementary school. It isn't a revolutionary idea.

"Do you not understand that your question (did you just see a woman walk by wearing certain clothing) contains inherent context in the manner SpokenTruth was stating was required?"

ok lets say I didn't specify any clothing 'did you just see a woman pass by here?"

"So while I don't want to speak for them"

no its good that you covered for him like that



o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

As previously stated, I don't believe it is best debate practice to get into complicated aspects of a discussion before the exceedingly simple is agreed upon. There isn't really any benefit in that, as it just instantly moves the discussion to a place where agreement is virtually impossible. Nothing that I have spoken of so far strictly applies to transgendered individuals, so there is no necessity in addressing transgenderism at this point in time. As such, I don't plan on addressing any of your questions relating specifically to transgenderism until we are able to agree upon the basics.

In regards to your assertion that I have switched positions: I have not. You simply struggle deeply with understanding these concepts and as such, you jump to a lot of conclusions that are not founded through what I am saying. This is a fault in your understanding, not a fault in the definitions behind sex and gender. I will ask you to respond to what I am saying and not what you think I might have said several months ago, as it seems this will be required to have a conversation that doesn't instantly devolve into hearsay and discussions of points I never made.

With that out of the way, I will address the one question that you did ask on the topic of what I said:

"Can you provide an example of how sex and gender work together to produce femaleness?"

Lets define "femaleness" as all of things associated with a female (biological and social and everything in between). When we think of an individual who holds these attributes of "femaleness" we may think of someone who is shorter and has breasts (generally biological characteristics) and wears dresses and has long hair (generally social (normative) characteristics). Both these biological characteristics and these social characters work together to produce the concept of "femaleness".

"Lets define "femaleness" as all of things associated with a female (biological and social and everything in between). When we think of an individual who holds these attributes of "femaleness" we may think of someone who is shorter and has breasts (generally biological characteristics) and wears dresses and has long hair (generally social (normative) characteristics). Both these biological characteristics and these social characters work together to produce the concept of "femaleness"."

what about if a woman isn't wearing clothing? she becomes less feminine in your view?

Again, we are speaking about how gender and sex work together to bring to mind the attributes associated with femaleness. If you were to remove clothing from the discussion, you would simply be limiting the discussion, not finding any deeper meaning or truth as you seem to be attempting to do. Stay focused on the conversation here.

I will say that the fact that you seem to have embraced this really strange and specific line of questioning implies to me that you lack any actual substantive issues with the distinction between gender and sex as previously outlined. If you disagree with this assertion, I would love to hear those substantive issues.



SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

"you've been indoctrinated (to use your own verbiage and tone) to believe they are one and the same. "

can you quote for me where I've said that sex and gender are the same?

Dude, that's been your position on these forums since day 1.

huh really? as far as I remember I've conceded from the very beginning that behavior and presentation can be abstracted out from sex and I reiterated that as recently as a page or 2 ago

my problem is with the position that gender is not impacted upon by sex



o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

Do you not understand that your question (did you just see a woman walk by wearing certain clothing) contains inherent context in the manner SpokenTruth was stating was required? So while I don't want to speak for them, SpokenTruth likely would not ask a follow up question. They would use the context of the question to determine how to respond.

That is how language works. I remember learning about context clues in elementary school. It isn't a revolutionary idea.

"Do you not understand that your question (did you just see a woman walk by wearing certain clothing) contains inherent context in the manner SpokenTruth was stating was required?"

ok lets say I didn't specify any clothing 'did you just see a woman pass by here?"

There is still context in that statement. Would you expect someone to be asking for a medical determination of someone walking by in the street?

A good example of a word which has different contexts in different settings is the word parent. In a social setting it typically means "the primary caregiver for a child" (or something to that nature), but in a medical setting, it would mean something like "An individual who has directly passed down their genes to a child" (or something to that nature). If someone were to ask you "Did you just see a parent and a child walk by" you would answer utilizing the first definition, you wouldn't ask for clarification about whether they were speaking about a biological parent because that isn't what the context implies. On the other hand, if you are taking a your child to a doctor, questions about genetics would be far more relevant. That is what we call the utilization of context.