Forums - Sony Discussion - Developers have had 3D development kits since january

disolitude said:
Ssenkahdavic said:
disolitude said:

I don't think anyone thought that PS3s will have issues working on the new expensive HDMI 1.4 TVs.

What about the older 3D capable 1.3 TVs that use checkerboard? What about the true 120 hz monitors which use Nvidias HDMI to DVI cable? Finding this out would be key...

As far as dev kits, thats cool but all they really had to do is cut the PS3 in half...lol.

"Here yougo...make the game in 3D now" :)

Any that support the 1.4 standard?  To bad the PS3 had/s 1.3a HDMI (which only supports half the bandw of 1.4) and it is not able to be converted to 1.4 (different cable, atleast it was last time I read about it all, might have changed).  We need more INFO!

You got to wonder why they need HDMI 1.4 TVs since Wipeout and Motostorm are doing 720p @ 30 hz X 2 in 3D.

HDMI 1.2 could do this...In fact, I am waiting for 360 to announce 3D games now :)

Otherwise are you sure that cables are not interchangable amd backwards compatible? I was told that HDMI 1.3 cable should work with HDMI 1.4 plug and should support almost all of its features.

 

"In addition, Ver. 1.4 also introduces support for 3D over HDMI - supporting common 3D formats and resolutions up to 1080p, an expanded support for color spaces designed specifically for digital still cameras like sYCC601 and Adobe RGB, an Audio Return Channel for upstream audio transfers over the same HDMI cable, a Micro HDMI Connector – that is almost half the size of a standard 19-pin HDMI connector, sort of equivalent to a mini USB connector, and an Automotive Connection System for better in-vehicle HDMI use."

source  

EDIT: "

Are HDMI 1.4 devices going to be backwards-compatible with older HDMI (v.1.0 - 1.3) devices?

Yes, devices built to the HDMI 1.4 specification will be fully backwards-compatible with existing HDMI devices and their features.

source



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disolitude said:
Ssenkahdavic said:

Any that support the 1.4 standard?  To bad the PS3 had/s 1.3a HDMI (which only supports half the bandw of 1.4) and it is not able to be converted to 1.4 (different cable, atleast it was last time I read about it all, might have changed).  We need more INFO!

You got to wonder why they need HDMI 1.4 TVs since Wipeout and Motostorm are doing 720p @ 30 hz X 2 in 3D.

HDMI 1.2 could do this...In fact, I am waiting for 360 to announce 3D games now :)

Otherwise are you sure that cables are not interchangable amd backwards compatible? I was told that HDMI 1.3 cable should work with HDMI 1.4 plug and should support almost all of its features.

 

If the run is short, pretty much any cable will work for 1.4 (so long as they didn't add extra wires). The problem comes in long distances where the capacitance of the cable is too high on the non 1.4 cables which then slows down data transmision rates. Obviously this comes down to a plug & test, and if it doesn't work then you go and buy a cheap 1.4 cable online.




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Good to start early. This won't be important until the next generation with systems designed specifically for 3D output at 1080P.



Tease.

Squilliam said:
Good to start early. This won't be important until the next generation with systems designed specifically for 3D output at 1080P.

If next gen systems are to have the type of video processing power to do 3D  + improved graphics over this gen...what entry level price do you think we are looking at?

I mean, thats like going to Naughty Dog and telling them...

"Make Uncharted 3 look better than Uncharted 2. Make it 1080p. Make the refresh rate stable at 30 hz.  And when you are done, make the PS4 do all that TWICE, so we can have it in 3D"

The type of PC rig able to run this today would have 4 bg of ram, quad core cpu and a 400+ dollar video card gpu(GTx285 + or ATI 5850+)



disolitude said:

I don't think anyone thought that PS3s will have issues working on the new expensive HDMI 1.4 TVs.

What about the older 3D capable 1.3 TVs that use checkerboard? What about the true 120 hz monitors which use Nvidias HDMI to DVI cable? Finding this out would be key...

As far as dev kits, thats cool but all they really had to do is cut the PS3 in half...lol.

"Here yougo...make the game in 3D now" :)

that's what i'm interested in... it'd mean 250€ monitors!....



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disolitude said:
Squilliam said:
Good to start early. This won't be important until the next generation with systems designed specifically for 3D output at 1080P.

If next gen systems are to have the type of video processing power to do 3D  + improved graphics over this gen...what entry level price do you think we are looking at?

I mean, thats like going to Naughty Dog and telling them...

"Make Uncharted 3 look better than Uncharted 2. Make it 1080p. Make the refresh rate stable at 30 hz.  And when you are done, make the PS4 do all that TWICE, so we can have it in 3D"

The type of PC rig able to run this today would have 4 bg of ram, quad core cpu and a 400+ dollar video card gpu(GTx285 + or ATI 5850+)

Entry level price? Between $249 and $299.

Also it'd be cheaper for developers to make games in 3D than it would be to expend the effort making even more high fidelity assets for the next generation. One or two programmers are a lot cheaper than a team of 20-30 artists!

The reason? The next generation GPUs/CPUs are both more efficient and powerful for the same number of transistors given a limited power budget and the console manufacturers have easily got at least three times as many to play with. Not only will the next generation hardware be more powerful, it will also be more efficient and it will be able to reuse many of the products of the left eye render for the right eye as they happen at identical frame-time. This efficiency is a hardware level feature which is only present in DX11+ GPUs.



Tease.

Squilliam said:
disolitude said:
Squilliam said:
Good to start early. This won't be important until the next generation with systems designed specifically for 3D output at 1080P.

If next gen systems are to have the type of video processing power to do 3D  + improved graphics over this gen...what entry level price do you think we are looking at?

I mean, thats like going to Naughty Dog and telling them...

"Make Uncharted 3 look better than Uncharted 2. Make it 1080p. Make the refresh rate stable at 30 hz.  And when you are done, make the PS4 do all that TWICE, so we can have it in 3D"

The type of PC rig able to run this today would have 4 bg of ram, quad core cpu and a 400+ dollar video card gpu(GTx285 + or ATI 5850+)

Entry level price? Between $249 and $299.

Also it'd be cheaper for developers to make games in 3D than it would be to expend the effort making even more high fidelity assets for the next generation. One or two programmers are a lot cheaper than a team of 20-30 artists!

The reason? The next generation GPUs/CPUs are both more efficient and powerful for the same number of transistors given a limited power budget and the console manufacturers have easily got at least three times as many to play with. Not only will the next generation hardware be more powerful, it will also be more efficient and it will be able to reuse many of the products of the left eye render for the right eye as they happen at identical frame-time. This efficiency is a hardware level feature which is only present in DX11+ GPUs.

I don't know if I agree with the whole efficiency aspect. I mean the GTX 480 which just came out pushes the boundaries with whats physically possible with video cards given the specifications for PCI-E slot. If we look at the history, these video cards are getting bigger, hotter and consume more and more power.

I personally think we may see the first dual GPU console next gen...and a 1000 watt power supply built in the X720 :)



Sharky54 said:
kitler53 said:
Sharky54 said:
I demoed the 3D at a sony store. It is very natural feeling. Pretty awesome.

3D tv or 3D video games?  i saw monsters vs. aliens at best buy.  it was awesome but i'm really hoping to get my hands on a 3D video game to try.

It was a video mixed of PS3 games and some movies. I saw a racer. Whatever it was. There was dirt and stuff. It looked as natural as Avatar did when I saw it. So I am assuming it will look that good during gameplay. I hope so anyway. I don't have 2 grand to drop on a 3D tv though. I may get a monitor that can do it, if the PS2 is compatible. 

I saw both things you guys are talking about - Samsung Monster vs Aliens and Sonystyle montage - and I didn't see much 3D, saw a little bit but nothing jaw dropping or anything like that, looked more like a gimmick to me. The guy at BB said some people just can't see 3D and I might be one of those, kinda sucks because I was looking forward to it, it actually kinda killed my hype for the 3DS too.



HDMI 1.4 will support 3 types of cables:

1. Current HDMI cables (1.0-1.3) for standard video/audio.  These can go from/to a 1.4 device to/from 1.0/1.3 device.

2. New HDMI cables for 1.4 (that include the up/down ethernet connectivity) Will also be necessary to transfer data >10.4 gb/s (the new 40k resolution).

3. A mini cable (like a mini USB port) for vehicles.

Old HDMI outputs (1.0/1.3) will most likely NOT be firmware upgradeable (1.4 is using a new chip, but 1.3b might be compatible.  No word on this yet)

Just to clarify what I said earlier :)



disolitude said:
Squilliam said:

Entry level price? Between $249 and $299.

Also it'd be cheaper for developers to make games in 3D than it would be to expend the effort making even more high fidelity assets for the next generation. One or two programmers are a lot cheaper than a team of 20-30 artists!

The reason? The next generation GPUs/CPUs are both more efficient and powerful for the same number of transistors given a limited power budget and the console manufacturers have easily got at least three times as many to play with. Not only will the next generation hardware be more powerful, it will also be more efficient and it will be able to reuse many of the products of the left eye render for the right eye as they happen at identical frame-time. This efficiency is a hardware level feature which is only present in DX11+ GPUs.

I don't know if I agree with the whole efficiency aspect. I mean the GTX 480 which just came out pushes the boundaries with whats physically possible with video cards given the specifications for PCI-E slot. If we look at the history, these video cards are getting bigger, hotter and consume more and more power.

I personally think we may see the first dual GPU console next gen...and a 1000 watt power supply built in the X720 :)

You have to remember that the current chips are 300M transistors, both the Xbox 360 and PS3 respectively. A modern GPU would be like the Xenos is to the RSX except it would likely have at least 4* the number of transistors. The Juniper GPUs from ATI are 170mm^2 and almost a billion transistors and they have about 5* the rated shader performance. On 28NM which is coming in 2011 they could fit 1.5B transistors into a space not much larger than the current Xenos die size.

You have to remember that the consoles are far more efficient in terms of how they use their resources and they don't have to use rediculous levels of AA and they can implement more efficient software techniques. A humble Juniper class GPU could match what the top of the range Nvidia chip can achieve if fitted to a console.



Tease.