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sundin13 on 10 July 2022
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Ryuu96 said:
sundin13 said:

While it is somewhat crass to speak about the conflict in such terms, would it be accurate to say that America significantly benefitted from this war even if Russia does eventually gain ground in Ukraine? It seems the military and economic losses of one of our prime adversaries combined with the strengthening of NATO and increased military contributions of many European allies are important gains, furthering Americas foreign goals while the American cost of this war is primarily monetary. I'd argue that we have gotten more from the billions we have spent on Ukraine than we often get from the Trillions we spend on our own military budget.

I think that is fair to say. America 'wins' no matter what happens now, even if Ukraine loses, other countries benefit to a lesser extent but NATO is stronger than ever and has two new powerful members, EU is stronger than ever and has Ukraine/Moldova as future applicants along with Georgia if they change some things, Russia is weaker than ever and it will take them years to recover financially and militarily. Even if Russia successfully takes all of Donbas and declares a "win" to the war, Ukraine isn't just going to be like "Okay, fine you win" both sides will be bombing each other for years to come, only way Russia avoids that is by taking all of Ukraine which is very unlikely. Russia has been turned into a pariah and over 50 countries are supporting Ukraine, even some of Russia's traditional 'allies' are turning their backs on them a little. People finally seeing that maybe it isn't a good idea to trust a murdering dictator, unless of course, you're one yourself. Overall the West has gained influence on a global scale and Russia has either remained stagnant (the most optimistic prediction of the future) or lost influence.

Although Ukraine has a lot of natural resources that Russia takes control of if they take Ukraine, which is bad, that's if they don't destroy them all taking over Ukraine. But it sucks to think about it in these terms because I don't want countries eventually giving up on Ukraine, at least America seems all invested in taking down Russia for now and Tbh after the last few years of Trump, America's relationship with Europe was tarnished but this war has basically turned that around completely and suddenly America is everywhere again. My only issue is people saying America wanted the war, just because they benefit of Russia's stupidity doesn't mean they wanted the war. Things would be a lot different if Ukraine got steamrolled like most countries 'experts' predicted would happen but they were way off the mark with that prediction.

Yeah, I don't think that the idea that America "wins" no matter what is a reason to cease or reduce our contributions. Again, it feels uncomfortable to say given the real human toll of this war, but there is a large benefit to both Russian defeat and Russia being stuck in a protracted war with Ukraine. This is the most productive avenue for military spending, so I would certainly support making this a long term commitment even if it meant reducing domestic military spending (which isn't something I support as much as many others on the American left).

I think instead that the most significant danger is the unity that has been built falling apart when countries start pulling back their contributions and pushing harder for an end to the war by any means. This unity is a valuable asset and I personally am willing to pay to see it maintained through continued contributions. 

Basically what I'm trying to say is that while supporting Ukraine is the good and right thing to do morally, there is also a benefit to continued support, so even if you are looking at this in a strictly "America First" manner, support for Ukraine should be a high military priority.