| Jaicee said: The Vox article you point to was genuinely interesting and I appreciate that. But to your larger case about white supremacy, I am basically familiar with what the concept refers to in critical race theory, but find many of the resultant conclusions people draw obscenely simplistic and disingenuous. For example, you argue that a black person who blames immigrants for unemployment or under-employment does so because of white people in positions of power were the original nativists. This begs the question of how it's possible that other countries wherein white people are a minority -- sometimes only a fringe minority without any political power to speak of, like in the case of say Japan, for example -- one also often finds exceedingly restrictive immigration policies and bigoted, hostile attitudes toward migrant workers? You see what I'm saying? Once you get outside of a U.S.-centric worldview and mindset, the entire argument you're making here about "whiteness" being responsible for nativist attitudes falls apart. Something similar can be said of the racialized association people often make between ethnically Chinese people and Covid-19. Donald Trump personally and specifically bears more responsibility for the popularization of that narrative than anyone else on Earth and that can be statistically demonstrated. However, Donald Trump's opinions are not exactly reflective of those of most white people in positions of power even in this country, are they? Is the matter then, in fact, systemic, or more like the disproportionate influence of a particular narcissistic, xenophobic asshole who was the worst president we've had in my lifetime and only served one term because of it? What I'm proposing here is that perhaps indeed Asian hate is exactly that: Asian hate and not "whiteness". It might be Donald Trump's idea of whiteness, but I really doubt that the black person who attacks an Asian-American over Covid-19 does so because they view themself as inferior to white people. Anyway, fair enough on the city-by-city breakdown of the crime rates. But I still feel that Carlson has a valid point when he highlights the fact that crime rates have, by contrast, fallen most everywhere else in the world since the onset of Covid-19 and that as much frankly makes sense when you consider the nature of stay-at-home orders and social distancing policies. We seem to be the exception to this rule here. I've seen the argument made that the explanation lies in our recent record-breaking surge in gun sales. That too is a fair enough point, but guns don't just sell themselves. People buy them for reasons. Namely because they feel unsafe. The question then becomes one of why so many people suddenly feel that much less safe than a year ago. There's little question that, frankly, the main reason that this sudden surge began right around late May and early June of last year and has persisted since, running parallel to jumps in violent crime in this country, obviously has to do with 1) the murder of George Floyd and increased fear of police violence going along with that, 2) corresponding social de-legitimization of the police by Black Lives Matter resulting in less active police forces broadly, cutbacks in funding for police departments on a smaller scale, lack of prosecution for many crimes in various cities, etc., and 3) violence in the streets itself; it becomes a self-perpetuating problem that continually creates more fear in more people, resulting in turn in increased gun purchases and more concurrent social violence. That would be my personal assessment. |
"How [is it] possible that other countries wherein white people are a minority -- sometimes only a fringe minority without any political power to speak of, like in the case of say Japan, for example -- one also often finds exceedingly restrictive immigration policies and bigoted, hostile attitudes toward migrant workers?"
Well, because they have their own systems of oppression at work. The issue is largely a majoritarian one, not a "white" one. White people aren't evil or bigoted because of their skin tone. These trends largely emerge from power. As they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is simply the case that in America, white people have historically held the lions share of power, and as such, society has become tailored to them. These types of discussions seek to explain the way things work in America. Similar human forces are at play in other countries, but through the differences in the countries, the outcome varies.
"However, Donald Trump's opinions are not exactly reflective of those of most white people in positions of power even in this country, are they?"
While Trump's opinions may not be reflective of a majority, Donald Trump is far from the only one who has been saying these things, and Donald Trump held a lot of systemic power. But does that singular power make this systemic? I would argue that through the outsized influence that Trump has, yes, it is almost inherently systemic. He still arguably leads an entire wing of our government, and his influence holds a lot of power in the news media as well. I find it difficult to not see such a thing as systemic given the fact that seemingly the majority of the Republican party either played along or stayed silent.
"I really doubt that the black person who attacks an Asian-American over Covid-19 does so because they view themself as inferior to white people."
I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. I never insisted that this was the case, and it doesn't have to be the case for anything that I'm speaking about to be true. As previously stated, white supremacy is not really about people outwardly stating that one group is better than another, it is often broken into much smaller pieces, such as the belief that a nuclear family is a superior family structure to, say, living with your parents or extended family units which may be more common in other cultures. People often don't see that there is a supremacist component to these beliefs or feelings. Similarly, memetic ideas such as "Mexicans are stealing our jobs" largely spread through the power of white supremacy. White supremacy goes a lot deeper than simply people believing one group is superior to another group and saying "well, this person didn't say that whites are better, so it must not be relevant here" is a complete and fundamental misunderstanding of what is being discussed.
"Crime rates"
I think the decreased trust in police may be a better theory about what is the cause here than changes in funding, but I'd like to say that I put the blame for this on the cops who killed George Floyd (and others), not the people who criticized them for it.
| zero129 said: Wow.. Just WOW. Dude you are so full of shit and i dont care if i get banned for this but really... Its my fault as a white guy if some black on Asian violence breaks out.. Man your a snow flack... |
That's not what I said, but you do you man.
KLAMarine said:
Systems exist but their impact also ultimately comes down to the actions of individuals. |
...Okay, so if we acknowledge that systems exist, why is it bad to want to dismantle the harmful impacts of them?
| Flilix said: It's weird to me that one would refer to xenophobia as 'white supremacy'. The distinction is relevant because they're rooted in distinct thinking systems, they have different causes, ideas and possible 'cures'. Xenophobia might be influenced by racial supremacy, but that doesn't mean that there's an inherent or even a strong link. Here in Europe there are for example a lot of moderate right-leaning people who absolutely love immigrants who are well integrated. The source you posted could prove that the anti-Asian sentiment is more common among powerful white Americans, but not that it's caused by them. Like I said, it's not surprising that it's common among them, but that doesn't mean that a) it's because of their white supremacy, b) they are the reason why others become more anti-Asian. Putting things like 'white supremacy' or 'systemic racism' as dogmatic principles does not seem very useful to me. Last paragraph: I was talking about African Africans, not black Americans. |
Again, I have to emphasize that this discussion is rooted in America. I make no promises that the same things will hold true in Europe or Africa (?).
Last edited by sundin13 - on 31 May 2021
