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Dante9 on 26 October 2020
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JuliusHackebeil said:
Dante9 said:

What? How did you come away with that from the game? It was the total opposite of clear cut, it was pretty clear they wanted to show that there really are no good guys and bad guys or good and evil, it's just a matter of perspective. That was the whole point. An opposing group seem like the bad guys until you suddenly are shown things from their point of view. All characters do all kinds of things in the game, mostly horrific shit, even to the point where you as a player are made uncomfortable for what you have to do, and the characters justify their actions of course. I don't think bad things were portrayed as good in the first game either, it's always up to the player and it's very interesting how we fall in love with characters who do very grim stuff. The whole series is a study of the ambiguous nature of how we feel about these things.

I can agree to some extent. Yes, who is the good guy and who is the bad are very much dependent on perspective in TLoU2.

On the other hand: evil deeds are portrayed as evil and good deeds as good. This us what I think is too clear cut.

Spoilery talk:

Some characters might kill or torture others. In a really daring game the conversation would be open about this being a good thing. In part 2 stuff like that is bad 100 % of the time. And only when characters of part 2 are able to overcome their dark desires are they able to grow and overcome their trauma and get on with their lives.

And I really think this is something I cannot overlook. It is kiddy, but with a dark facade. And I fear their next game is goint to be similar in this regard. That there is no question about how to be good. Sure, for their next game I don't expect a clear cut villain and a clear cut good guy ptotagonist. But I fully expect that ND will carefully portray the bad stuff as bad and the good stuff as good, so that everybody knows how to be a goody two shoes. And that revenge is always bad. And that you have to forgive yourself and others to start healing. Such deep.

The thing is, some things just can't really be justified as a good thing, no matter how you look at them. Torturing or killing someone may get you results, but they're still a shitty and awful thing to do to anyone, I don't think there's really a discussion to be had here in that regard. It's just about to what lengths one is willing to go to to achieve something. There's a price to pay.

Also, like you said yourself, there's trauma involved for all parties. Unless you're a psychopath of some kind, doing brutal things to other people will screw with your mental health, even if it felt justified at the time. People don't really think about this stuff because in most games, you just slaughter people in the hundreds without batting an eye. It's just a game mechanic. TLOU is trying to address what consequences it would have on you in real life. It IS pretty deep indeed.