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Zkuq on 17 October 2020
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Hiku said:
Zkuq said:

2. I sort of disagree about the claim about perpetuating any misinformation. Like you said, I added a follow-up post, in which I also said the clarification changes nothing for me. The underlying problem is the same to me regardless of the clarification, although the extent is not. So yeah, I might have worded my first post a bit more softly had I had better information in the first place, but the problem is still there. On locking the original thread, hasn't it been common here to add clarifying information in the first post instead of recreating the whole thread when clarification is needed? I'm fine either way, locking just seems out of place compared to how it's usually done - but like I said, I'm fine either way.

3. I'm not interested in any spin. If submitting voice to Sony has been a thing even on PS4, I didn't know about it, but my stance on this has been the same for a long time, so had I known about it, I would have criticized it. Sounds like submitting voice to Sony is a new thing though, but I don't particularly care whether it is: I find it problematic whether it's new or not.4

5. It's the voice part that's the problem. If I write something on the internet, there's no reliable way to know my identity just from the text. Voice is much more identifying and should thus be treated much more seriously in regard to privacy. I don't object to moderation in general - it's the voice part that's the problem. It's a tough problem if you try to take privacy into account, but I find privacy much more important than proper behaviour of people.

6. At this point you can probably guess how much I participate in anything that requires my voice? I do, but I'm very careful about who I do it with and on what services I do it on.

7. Exactly! With familiar people, this whole feature is useless. With strangers, it's less of a problem because there are already certain risks, but having my voice sent to a bit corporation with a centralized place to collect the data poses an entirely different kind of a threat. No one's likely to ever identify my voice on, say, a random YouTube video unless they know what they're looking for and where from, but from Sony's servers, where it's attached to my name and other information attached to me? The YouTube videos could be annoying but not really pose much of a threat, but imagine if e.g. some nutjob took over the United States and required corporations to co-operate with the authorities to quell opposing opinions? You might (or might not) consider that a far-fetched situation, but I think any steps that might make it easier should be avoided.

That said, I'm also not a big fan of this applying to party chats. All it takes is one person who doesn't like your humour, and you might be screwed depending on how Sony enforces the rules. I can tell you my humour is definitely not politically correct in private, but in public, I would never make certain kinds of jokes to not be misinterpreted (and 'misinterpreted' is exactly the correct word - e.g 'showing true colours' is not the correct phrase because my humour doesn't really say much if anything about my actual opinions).

2. OP had 7 hours to update the thread and never did. And even on page 3 he was still claiming that the potential of being recorded by other users is a new policy, when it's not. 

As for perpetuating the problem, from my experience the more posts with misinformation, the more likely it is to continue.
I didn't want to edit too much out of the OP, and the thread already had too many people that needed to be corrected, so better to start over.

3. I was just making a distinction between a spin and a false premise. People can portray something in a positive or negative light, but it should be based on the actual premise of the situation.

And of course, people have have always been able to get banned from PSN for a multitude of reasons, even since PS3. (And pretty much any console with online capabilities.)

Here's some of the reasons you can get banned from PS4:

As you can see some of the examples involve being verbally abusive.

The reason you're not aware of this is probably partially because none of us ever read the Terms of Service when we click accept. And I think that's normal. They include Community Code of Conduct, and those are basically just common sense.



But if you're not aware that people can get their accounts banned for being toxic/abusive, then I think that's on you.
That the Share button lets you save clips of your game sessions is also common knowledge.

So 1+1 = ?

Somehow, people who are abusive or racist and sexist get banned. How does that happen?
Well, obviously one way is that users somehow submit the evidence for moderation. 

The difference in PS5 is that it will be more streamlined, because right now I don't think most people know how to make a report.
In PS5 it sounds like there will be a button for it somewhere in the UI (maybe in Party chat itself), and it'll seemingly let you zone in on a portion of just the audio rather than saving the last 30 minutes of both audio + video to your harddrive as the Share button currently does.

5. I see. But help me understand why this is a potential concern.
Even if you were harassing someone through text, I'm sure the Playstation moderators could identify that the text came from your PSN account. They probably have access to chat logs, so that people can't falsely get someone banned using Photoshop.

When it comes to reports involving audio, I don't think what you sound like will be relevant, because that would be useless for the first report against you.
As it works right now, I'm guessing they'll just make sure that the footage they receive matches when the person's PSN account picked up audio on the micriophone during that specific time. When someone talks in Party chat, an icon will indicate it. When they're silent, the icon will be different. And when they're muted, or don't have a microphone plugged in, it will have a red line crossed over it.

So if someone reports me for hate speech with a clip that occurred between 12:05 - 12:06, with doctored audio, then depending on how that lines up with how my microphone picked up audio at that time, they may or may not believe it. I guess there's still a chance that people could get someone banned falsely, if they were aware of these things.

However on PS5, if this is a built in Report feature, then the source of the audio will be considered authentic immediately, and impossible to doctor. It will always match up with what happened in the Party.

6. Yeah, I pretty much only do voice chat with people I know. In fact, I'm about to play Ghost of Tsushima's new co-op mode with a friend that way.

7. I figured it was something like that that you were concerned about. I just tried to explain how I think this will be useful for reporting abuse.
In my case, I haven't thought about it much, but that's because I usually don't attach my information to any account I make. I don't think I did on PSN either. So on the off chance that they are storing our voices, they probably don't have accurate info to match it to anyway. But for the record, I don't think Sony would be doing this, because PSN is a closed ecosystem so there's seemingly little to no perceivable value for them to collect and sell your information like that, etc.
And if the government are pushing any companies to do these things, there are far more useful avenues for that. *Glances over at my phone.*

2. I just think I've seen moderators update first posts in similar cases before, but like I said, I don't mind either way, so fair enough. Would just like consistency. But yeah, too many misinformed posts is not great for further discussion, I can definitely agree about that.

3. I don't mind people getting moderated for bad behaviour, and I'm not at all surprised it already appens. Again, it's the recording part that's the problem, and more precisely submitting recordings to Sony. If it's people recording video/audio, it's scattered wherever, but probably not stored on Sony's servers in a large scale, which is the most problematic part to me. It doesn't make much sense to fight people recording, but a big corporation is a different case.

4. It's the fact that voice is (in a way) much more personal that bothers me. It's instrinsic, a part of me, unlike what I write, kind of like, say, DNA. I'm not concerned about whether people get correctly identified (it's a different problem) and I also expect identification to work well enough even without voice, but I am concerned about Sony getting something very personal information about me despite not really needing it. For example, I would be fine with Sony getting a transcription of what I say but not my voice and speech itself. As far as I know, no recording of my voice exists on any server, and I would like to keep it that way if possible.

7. Yeah, I can easily see how this makes reporting bad behaviour easier, so I can definitely see the value in this. It's just weighing the pros against the cons, and I find this clearly negative all things considered. I don't like attaching false information to my accounts, so this is more of a problem for me. This is probably also a part of why I'm so hesitant to create new accounts just because someone requires it... Anyway, I'm not worried about Sony even selling my information or anything, although that too can be a risk. This is just a guaranteed way to get your voice on remote servers if anyone you ever talk to ever thinks your voice should end up there. I too am wary of my phone, but I also don't think it's really spying on me. There's a chance it might, either now or in the future, but as far as I know, it doesn't and probably won't either. If I ever have more reason to suspect my phone, I might take action (whatever that might me), but for now, I'm OK enough with my phone. (And just for the record, I'm not all that comfortable with what a lot of apps are doing, and I try to steer clear of apps that want more data than they need.)